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  #11  
Old 10-02-2006, 03:48 PM
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Hi there... just read your original post. Addressing concern about your dog not willling to socialize with boyfriends dad. You just got Ruckus, if I'm not mistaken and this is a pup you want to show? As you know, many judges are taller statured older gentlemen and they're not going to address that behavior on the table, outside of the 9 to 12 mo. puppy class. Your dog will simply be dismissed. Get into a handling class asap, if they offer this at the kennel you work at. This will teach him to calmly stand for his mouth, head and paws to be handled without trying to flee. Practice at home too. Put Ruckus up on a crate while you're practicing stacking. Hold him securely and ask bfs' dad to act as a judge. Ruckus is to do nothing more than learn to stand-stay, while dad stands close by and talks to you. Then allows dog to sniff his hand and gives him a treat. (Which he probably won't take first time around.) That's o.k., keep at it. Offering chicken or a meat he would not normally get next time. Over time you'll gradually get to a point where Ruckus should allow him to pet him, then run a hand along his back, then circle around the crate and examine his head. Ruckus doesn't have to like certain individuals but he needs to know that he's to mind you if you've asked him to stand for exam, wrether it's a vet, groomer, judge or family member (and that you're not going to let them hurt him) You need to be very positive in your manner/voice and bfs' dad needs to be very relaxed and move without hesitation. In the meantime, any chance you boyfriends dad can feed Ruckus his meals for the next 2 weeks? This will make a difference in how he perceives him, (as his food source) I believe Summitview has a beautiful Tervuren and Sheltie she shows, and had to go thru the same handling/ training you're going to need to do. Good to ask her questions about her sheltie as well as the breeder you work for. Nice to get different viewpoints on Shelties, from different handlers! My sheltie was a very social boy and was certain everyone wanted to meet and greet him. I did not purchase him that way though! It took a lot of work. Good luck!
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  #12  
Old 10-02-2006, 04:00 PM
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thanks for the help.
I am still uncertin on showing him, he has so many faults. either way!

thanks again
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  #13  
Old 10-02-2006, 04:02 PM
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P.S. Not to disrespect any other advise you've been given, but as an all-breed handler, I hope you'll use a regular buckle collar on Ruckus as a puppy. No prong or chain. This could backfire on you and create some very undesirable behavior, especially in a sheltie. No training equipment on the table for stacking just yet. As for heel work, same... start out with your buckle or martingale type collar. If you're doing this properly it doesn't matter what collar you have on and you want him to engage his brain right now and stop his flight response well before he's about to panic. Remember, this is a dog you want to encourage being comfortable leading out ahead of you on his leash, for show, with a pretty confident gate. So, start building confidence first. Just my 2 cents worth there! Have a good day.
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  #14  
Old 10-02-2006, 05:11 PM
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I have been using a choke, but i am just using a regular collar now. I really do need a martingale, i plan on making my own soon.

I started using the choke because he slipped out of his regular collar. but i just made sure it was extra tight and i havent had a problem again yet
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  #15  
Old 10-02-2006, 05:29 PM
Borntoleadk9.com Borntoleadk9.com is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otch1 View Post
P.S. Not to disrespect any other advise you've been given, but as an all-breed handler, I hope you'll use a regular buckle collar on Ruckus as a puppy. No prong or chain. This could backfire on you and create some very undesirable behavior, especially in a sheltie. No training equipment on the table for stacking just yet. As for heel work, same... start out with your buckle or martingale type collar. If you're doing this properly it doesn't matter what collar you have on and you want him to engage his brain right now and stop his flight response well before he's about to panic. Remember, this is a dog you want to encourage being comfortable leading out ahead of you on his leash, for show, with a pretty confident gate. So, start building confidence first. Just my 2 cents worth there! Have a good day.
well, like i stated, dogs understand the pinch collars more than people do. in my experience, a puppy or dog, will respond much better to assertive behavior. i am not saying to yank the dog around by any means, but i am saying to establish rank now. if you allow any dog to tread way out in front of you, you are setting yourself up for other issues. you need to evaluate the temperamnet before doing ANY sort of training. in a sheltie, this can most certainly lead to issues, by an inexperienced owner. not to discredit anyone here, but the breed does not matter as much as the individual temperament. i have seen bad owners turn sweet dogs into nightmares and i have seen good owners make pitbulls lapdogs. its all about the owner. also, it is important to mention that choke chains are far more inhumane than pinch collars are. pinch collars were designed to mimick mothers correction. again, something the dog instinctivly understands. much more than being choked. when we pamper our dogs, we get unwanted behavior. the LAST thing you should be doing is allowing your dog to stop walking or picking him up. your only teaching him how to manipulate you.

the best advice i can offer, is to allow Ruckus (i hope thats the name!) to drag the leash around the house so he will get used to having a collar and leash on. also, the teathering technique will help you. leave the leash on him inside and make him FOLLOW you from room to room during your daily activities when you can.

shelties do however tend to develop fear aggression. BUT BUT BUT, this is why establishing yourself as the strong alpha will CALM him down and stop the anxiety he is experiencing. dogs (in most cases) develop fear aggression and anxiety from weak owners. i am not saying this is in all cases and i am not implying you are a weak owner. it is important to understand WHY this behavior is developing.

the fast answer is that when a dog is living in a pack, he will evaluate the members and make sure there is a leader. if he doesnt see one, guess who the leader is. this MAY BE the cause of his behavior. you need to take a very close look at your approach to his training and the way you are responding to his shutting down and aggression towards certain humans. if you are in someway nuturing this behavior, you are only letting him know that you are infact, the follower, which in turn creates an enormus amount of stress for the dog. in a sheltie, this translates into fear aggression in most cases. remember, a confident dog usually doesnt bark or throws a fit before attacking.
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  #16  
Old 10-02-2006, 05:43 PM
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no offence but i chose not to go your route. Maybe if he was a dominate rott, or GSD...
or other breeds that tend to be dominate.

he is extremely well behaved! He just doesnt want to go certain places on the leash and he will stop and not budge. Ruckus usually always has his leash on so i can watch him well because i am working with potty breaking him. He is used to the leash, his owners before me walked him daily. Ruckus never barks either. like i said he is very well behaved. He knows i am a leader, he does what i say when i say it... just that one problem that sometimes occur on the leash, and i think thats mostly because he doesnt want to go inside just yet.
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  #17  
Old 10-02-2006, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by rabbitsarebetter View Post
no offence but i chose not to go your route. Maybe if he was a dominate rott, or GSD...
or other breeds that tend to be dominate.

he is extremely well behaved! He just doesnt want to go certain places on the leash and he will stop and not budge. Ruckus usually always has his leash on so i can watch him well because i am working with potty breaking him. He is used to the leash, his owners before me walked him daily. Ruckus never barks either. like i said he is very well behaved. He knows i am a leader, he does what i say when i say it... just that one problem that sometimes occur on the leash, and i think thats mostly because he doesnt want to go inside just yet.
HI! No offense taken. only trying to help. the thing i try to keep in mind is that no dog regardless of size or breed will challenge what the leader says. its just not how it works. the minute you stop to look at Ruckus and negotiate with him, you lost that battle.

im not trying to tell you what collar to use. all i would offer is to reconsider your body language and your intention when dealing with mr. ruckus. he will respect you for it. intention is your greatest asset as the pack leader.

my girlfriend tried to teach me one time to clip nails of dogs. i was SCARED! i was worried i would hurt the dog or cut into their quicks. and I DID. the dogs knew this and when i approached they got antsy and panicky before i even touched them. when my GF approached the same dog, they were totally calm and still. i am no longer trying to groom.

just a quick story to relate to the power of intention.
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  #18  
Old 10-02-2006, 06:04 PM
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He knows i am a leader, he does what i say when i say it... just that one problem that sometimes occur on the leash, and i think thats mostly because he doesnt want to go inside just yet.
Who is controlling the walk here? Him or you?

So he doesn't want to go somewhere, oh well, too bad. I have to agree that stopping when he puts the breaks on is not the best route to take. This is telling him that all he has to do is balk and mom will stop. If you allow this, it will ALWAYS happen.

I would put him on a regular flat collar, grab some treats, find a big grassy area (to protect his paws) and start walking. Then don't stop untill YOU want to. If he balks, keep walking. If you have to drag him a few feet it's not the end of the world, he'll get over it and for most dogs this is all it takes for them to realize that you won't play their game anymore.

Reward with treats for walking next to you, and don't stop when he does. I don't think you need any special training collar for this. A buckle or martingale should work just fine.

Just remember, you are training your dog every single time you interact with him. Do you want to train him to put the breaks on by stopping when HE wants too? Or do you want to train him to walk nicely on lead?

I don't see this as a dominance problem, but simply as a learned behavior. He's learned how to control the walk. So he is.
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  #19  
Old 10-02-2006, 06:09 PM
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[QUOTE=Borntoleadk9.com;467742]well, like i stated, dogs understand the pinch collars more than people do. in my experience, a puppy or dog, will respond much better to assertive behavior. Pinch collars are totally inappropriate for use with puppies. i am not saying to yank the dog around by any means, but i am saying to establish rank now. if you allow any dog to tread way out in front of you, you are setting yourself up for other issues. you need to evaluate the temperamnet before doing ANY sort of training. in a sheltie, this can most certainly lead to issues, by an inexperienced owner. not to discredit anyone here, but the breed does not matter as much as the individual temperament. i have seen bad owners turn sweet dogs into nightmares and i have seen good owners make pitbulls lapdogs. its all about the owner. also, it is important to mention that choke chains are far more inhumane than pinch collars are. pinch collars were designed to mimick mothers correction Unless you're again recommending a pinch for a puppy, the belief that an adult dog responds to a pinch collar because of what it's mother did....hogwash. Leadership is not shown by who in the pack is the toughest, control of resources is the best and most safe (for both dog and owner) way to establish that.. again, something the dog instinctivly understands. much more than being choked. when we pamper our dogs, we get unwanted behavior. the LAST thing you should be doing is allowing your dog to stop walking or picking him up. your only teaching him how to manipulate you.

the best advice i can offer, is to allow Ruckus (i hope thats the name!) to drag the leash around the house so he will get used to having a collar and leash on. also, the teathering technique will help you. leave the leash on him inside and make him FOLLOW you from room to room during your daily activities when you can.

shelties do however tend to develop fear aggression. BUT BUT BUT, this is why establishing yourself as the strong alpha (by control of resources, not through physical correction). will CALM him down and stop the anxiety he is experiencing. dogs (in most cases) develop fear aggression and anxiety from weak owners. i am not saying this is in all cases and i am not implying you are a weak owner. it is important to understand WHY this behavior is developing.
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  #20  
Old 10-02-2006, 06:22 PM
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[QUOTE=dr2little;467787]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borntoleadk9.com View Post
well, like i stated, dogs understand the pinch collars more than people do. in my experience, a puppy or dog, will respond much better to assertive behavior. Pinch collars are totally inappropriate for use with puppies. i am not saying to yank the dog around by any means, but i am saying to establish rank now. if you allow any dog to tread way out in front of you, you are setting yourself up for other issues. you need to evaluate the temperamnet before doing ANY sort of training. in a sheltie, this can most certainly lead to issues, by an inexperienced owner. not to discredit anyone here, but the breed does not matter as much as the individual temperament. i have seen bad owners turn sweet dogs into nightmares and i have seen good owners make pitbulls lapdogs. its all about the owner. also, it is important to mention that choke chains are far more inhumane than pinch collars are. pinch collars were designed to mimick mothers correction Unless you're again recommending a pinch for a puppy, the belief that an adult dog responds to a pinch collar because of what it's mother did....hogwash. Leadership is not shown by who in the pack is the toughest, control of resources is the best and most safe (for both dog and owner) way to establish that.. again, something the dog instinctivly understands. much more than being choked. when we pamper our dogs, we get unwanted behavior. the LAST thing you should be doing is allowing your dog to stop walking or picking him up. your only teaching him how to manipulate you.

the best advice i can offer, is to allow Ruckus (i hope thats the name!) to drag the leash around the house so he will get used to having a collar and leash on. also, the teathering technique will help you. leave the leash on him inside and make him FOLLOW you from room to room during your daily activities when you can.

shelties do however tend to develop fear aggression. BUT BUT BUT, this is why establishing yourself as the strong alpha (by control of resources, not through physical correction). will CALM him down and stop the anxiety he is experiencing. dogs (in most cases) develop fear aggression and anxiety from weak owners. i am not saying this is in all cases and i am not implying you are a weak owner. it is important to understand WHY this behavior is developing.

wow, looked like i offended someone. geez. take a pill. relax. prong collars ARE NOT innapropriate for puppies. tell that to the guy with an 80 pound golden jumping up and pulling his arms out of their sockets.

in my experience i have learned time and time and time again that everyone has an opinion on prong collars when they dont understand how to use them properly. tell you what, go learn how to use a prong collar correctly and then we can talk. prong collars are for people who have been properly trained and know how to use them. i see LOTS of people abusing them.

to say they are innappropriate and give me the mad face is very telling of your open mindedness and insight to training. temperment is more important that size, age or breed when deciding what kind of collar to use. any trainer should know this. to make a blanket statement that prongs are not good for puppies is ignorant and misinformed.

it is also importnat to understand i consider a puppy any dog under 1 year. i totally advocate (if needed) a prong for a puppy starting at 4 months old and ONLY after they have had their temperament accessed.

and finally, please dont read wrong and blame me for it. i never said using a prong collar or using physical force was the only way to establish leadership. infact, it doesnt at all! it simply gives a correction for innappropriate PACK behaviors or LEARNED behaviors. thats IT.
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