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  #41  
Old 02-05-2008, 07:31 AM
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SisMorphine- we are talking PP, not Sch. The white GSD simply didn't have it. I've seen a half dozen dogs come to our club for evaluations, and only 1 has been accepted. GSDs, Rotties, Dobes, mixes of dogs that are working breeds, American Bulldogs. None of them had any kind of drive to work. No prey, no defense, nothing. Only the 1 Rottie, who is doing well in his training now.

With the white GSD, he was making NO progress. Even in Sch- he would fail the courage test where the decoy runs at the dog and handler. Forget about taking a love tap from the stick. In our training, if the decoy didn't slip the sleeve on him in 5 seconds, he'd come off the bite and look for a cheap shot. He had weak nerves and was a fear biter. That won't work in Sch and it will never work in PP. I'm not sure what term to use besides wash out, because that's what happened. This dog was 2 years old, so he was pretty mature, and the decoys never put any pressure on a dog that the dog can't handle. The owner was the one who kept trying to jump from step 1 to step 10, then go back to step 3, then to step 7, etc. He had no focus on the training. He'd see one of the advanced dogs doing something, and he wanted to do it too, instead of working the dog on a back tie or bungee and building his grip and confidence. He could be a nice dog in obedience or agility or something like that, but he isn't cut out for bite work.


RD, how old is this dog you are talking about? You can take him to a Sch or PP club and have him evaluated. They can tell if he's a fear biter or if he means business. Controlling a dog that means business is easier than a fear biter. It's all about obedience, and you know how to do that already.
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  #42  
Old 02-05-2008, 10:01 AM
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I mean, white GSDs in general are known to have some severe fear issues to begin with (why is that kids? Because duh-duh-duh! they were bred for color and color only!) and frankly I rarely see them able to be in public nevermind able to do a sport.

Ummm . . . I'm not sure what other term to use. Not cut out for the work? I'll have to think on it more. But "washed out" just irks me more than anything LOL!
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  #43  
Old 02-05-2008, 04:50 PM
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Dan, Red, Sch3dana... how do you *tell* if your dog has the courage to confront and deal with an aggressor without actually testing them?
I don't think you ever know until you are actually in the situation. Every test only shows how the dog performs in the circumstances of that test, not all tests. But, there is a relationship between all the tests of your dog's courage, so that a dog that passes a Schutzhund test is more likely to protect you than the one that fails. And, any training that you do in PP or Schtuzhund will increase the chances that you and the dog do the right thing when you end up in a hairy situation. And that you will be able to control the dog if he reacts aggressively and you need to stop him or call him back.

Saying all of that, experienced dog people certainly get good at predicting which dogs will bite and when. No one is fool proof, but there are people out there who look at a dog walk around the dog field, say they will or won't work (without working them) and are right much more often than they are wrong.
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  #44  
Old 02-06-2008, 08:32 AM
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Regarding the testing part- we hardly ever really test our dogs. Our club philosophy is that 99% of a dogs life should be training for the situation he might be put into. If you keep testing testing testing, the dog can get to the point where they say "why should I go down field and get my butt kicked by that decoy again?". So we keep it positive, allow the dog to totally dominate the decoys, and get so confident that when the real thing happens, they don't even think twice about it. It's like boxing or martial arts- you spend nearly all of your time training, and a small % of actually doing it for real.
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  #45  
Old 02-06-2008, 12:49 PM
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[QUOTE=DanL;964377]

The owner was the one who kept trying to jump from step 1 to step 10, then go back to step 3, then to step 7, etc. He had no focus on the training. He'd see one of the advanced dogs doing something, and he wanted to do it too, instead of working the dog on a back tie or bungee and building his grip and confidence. He could be a nice dog in obedience or agility or something like that, but he isn't cut out for bite work.

QUOTE]

The dog maybe fine with doing something like agility but the owner wouldn't be. Poor training and unrealistic expectations always have the same results regardless of what sport or discipline that is being trained. These types of people want gratification NOW lol. They think solid foundation training is boring their dogs, don't train, skip vital steps or skip several steps and then blame the dog, the trainer and the weather for their failure. And of course it is never their fault. They also tend to be lazy trainers, although they would deny that to their death lol, but they really must think their trainer or other people are stupid or something, because the rest can see the holes in the training and KNOW why............
And these types of people can take a dog with loads of potential and natural talent and ruin that dog. And it is amazing how fast they can ruin that dog, much to the dismay of a trainer.
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  #46  
Old 02-06-2008, 01:25 PM
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adojrts, that's very true. Our guys were only suggesting a venue where the dog might be able to have some success. It wasn't going to happen on the protection field. The guy isn't stupid, but I didn't think about that he might have the same expectations with another activity.
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  #47  
Old 02-06-2008, 02:00 PM
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Dan
I would bet my last dollar that he would have the same out come I feel bad for dogs, because they really don't have a chance of success because of the owner.
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  #48  
Old 02-06-2008, 02:15 PM
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Well, I give him some credit, he rescued the dog, and it had obviously been abused as it is hand shy. He's made a lot of progress on him with obedience. But you are right, he is the kind of person who wants a finished product without putting the time and work into it.
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  #49  
Old 02-06-2008, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SisMorphine View Post
I mean, white GSDs in general are known to have some severe fear issues to begin with (why is that kids? Because duh-duh-duh! they were bred for color and color only!) and frankly I rarely see them able to be in public nevermind able to do a sport.

Ummm . . . I'm not sure what other term to use. Not cut out for the work? I'll have to think on it more. But "washed out" just irks me more than anything LOL!
Not well bred White GSDs.

In fact, I would bet the ratio of fearful Whites is the same as fearful *Insert color of choice here* if you only look at breeders who do it right.

And no, I don't have a white, I prefer sable
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  #50  
Old 02-13-2008, 10:47 PM
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Default Quick Help Sch people for a question on the written bh exam

I know all the answers except this one Why would a dog eat cadaver ? I thought because he is starving , but could it also be that the dog associates cadaver scent with the food reward when cadaver scent or that the dog is possessing the cadaver. I would think a dog shopuld not eat cadaver but be just indicative to it same as articles in tracking . or would the answer be not trained enough for cadaver search. This written test is something new?
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