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  #41  
Old 09-09-2006, 12:57 AM
opokki opokki is offline
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Originally Posted by silverpawz View Post
Opokki, please come back and tell us what you thought of the course once you're finished. I'd be very interested to hear your view on the whole thing once it's completed.
Will do.
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  #42  
Old 09-09-2006, 10:43 AM
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[QUOTE=silverpawz;442561]I know enough to make an informed desicion on if I'd reccommend that someone take the course or not. I'm not saying that every trainer who comes out of there is horrid at their job. Not at all. I'm sure some of them go on to futher their education, form their own opinions on methods, and make a successful business.

I only hope that you require more information from your clients before delivering your "informed" decision on the cases you handle. You have asked more questions than you've answered about the material in this course you still maintain that you're qualitied to judge, it's abudently clear by your questions that you're not.
The ABC course is not bias or slanted. It covers reasearch based material in a very concise manor and if you ever do take the time to even flip through the manuals, you'd see how silly your arguments are. This course is ideal for someone starting out as it covers pretty much A-Z. I honestly can't imagine what it would be about the material that you find either incomplete or offensive. It's clear that you don't either as all of the things that you THOUGHT were true, I've explained....
I don't know silverpawz, but as an intelligent adult, I tend to want to know the topic before entering into a debate on it. A propensity to rush to judgement without having all of the facts, especially in the industry that you've chosen.....is not a great quality for a trainer..
It's of course your choice to be someone who would talk someone out of taking formal education but it is absolutely irresponsible to recommend that potential trainers don't bother trying to become certified. You know yourself that the dogs are the one's who loose when more and more trainers come into this industry with no standard to go from. You've made a committment to stand your ground and argue black is white. Be honest at least with yourself silver, this has very little to do with ABC...
Maybe you think it's GOOD ENOUGH to stand in a bubble and think you know more than the "GROUPS" of true experts in this industry and hold fast to your "DONE FINE WITHOUT IT" attitude, I don't.
You know Silverpaws, I was a personal trainer for 23 years (yes - certified). I worked with many trainers over the years, many of them "self professed" experts who used to be bodybuilders and really knew their stuff....or so they thought. I can't tell you the number of those trainers who hurt people because they simply didn't know any better. They really knew how to sculpt their own bodies into statue like forms, but GAWD help them when faced with a 60 year old women with Osteo..... That's why there are regulations and standards today in personal training, and why certification is a bare minimum. Many dog trainers in my city can't get insurance because they don't have that bare minimum....already.
You will see a shift away from "self taught" trainers to protect the public and their dogs. You seem to think that looking into it for yourself would be admitting defeat. Quite the opposite is true Silverpawz, many of the best trainers take that extra step because admitting that they don't know it all shows strength in character and committment to providing the best they can to their clients.
I do think that it's incredibly irresponsible to talk someone out of becoming certified simply because you think that it worked for you. It's NOT OK for anyone to throw up a sign and call themselves a trainer, but that's exactly what would happen if everyone had your attitude.
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  #43  
Old 09-09-2006, 11:53 AM
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My 2 cents and then I am going away from this thread...

If I was looking for a trainer, I would much rather have one that had went through a basic course somewhere and had a certification than someone that didnt have anything but experience training their own animals..

Thats like me saying I'm a trainer because I taught Chloe sit, down, and *mostly* stay...
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  #44  
Old 09-09-2006, 01:26 PM
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bogolove bogolove is offline
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Originally Posted by opokki View Post
So far so good but I'm really only just getting started on Stage 1. My material just came a few days ago so I haven't formed much of an opinion just yet but I will be sure to let you know as I get further into the course.
Please let me know what you think of it. I have been reading everything that everyone has to say and taking everything into perspective, but it would also really help me to hear from someone who is currently taking the course. I can't do it until after Christmas as my husband has me signed on to a project of his for the holiday season so that should give you plenty of time to get into it and let me know how you feel about taking it.

Also, I wouldn't mind reading a recommended book if anyone will let me know of good ones to start with. I am sure everyone has different opions on which they like the best, so feel free to express your opinions on them. I really wasn't trying to start anything here, but really you have all given me a lot to think about and I do appreciate all opinions regardless of what my first step will be. I would really appreciate some book recommendations for me to divulge myself in through Christmas and to kind of get me started on some of the knowledge.
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  #45  
Old 09-09-2006, 04:00 PM
opokki opokki is offline
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bogolove: I will be sure to let you know what I think of the course.
I've also PM'd you just incase this post gets lost in the long thread.

Here is a long list of several books that I thought were excellent and which I think I learned a lot from:

The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson
Dogs Are From Neptune by Jean Donaldson
Mine! by Jean Donaldson
Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor
The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell
Beginning Family Dog Training by Patricia McConnell
How Dogs Learn by Burch & Baily
Exelerated Learning by Pamela Reid
How To Teach a New Dog Old Tricks by Ian Dunbar
Dr. Dunbar's Good Little Dog Book by Ian Dunbar
Before and After Getting Your Puppy by Ian Dunbar
The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller
Behavior Problems in Dogs by William Campbell
Aggression in Dogs by Brenda Aloff
Canine Body Language: A photographic guide by Brenda Aloff
Dog Language by Roger Abrantes
Outwitting Dogs by Terry Ryan
Coaching People to Train Their Dogs by Terry Ryan
One on One: A dog trainers guide to private training by Nicole Wilde
It's Not the Dogs, It's the People! by Nicole Wilde
So You Want to Be a Dog Trainer by Nicole Wilde
The Domestic Dog by James Serpell
Dogs:A startling new understing by Raymond & Lorna Coopinger
Click for Joy! by Melissa Alexander
How To Speak Dog by Stanely Coren
Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas
Canine Behavior by Bonnie Beaver
Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals by Karen Overall

Patricia McConnell's series of booklets:
How to be the Leader of the Pack
The Cautious Canine
Fiesty Fido
I'll Be Home Soon
Way to Go! How to Houstrain a Dog of any Age
Feeling Outnumbered? How to Manage & Enjoy a Multi-dog Household


Behavior Modification: Principles & Procedures by Raymond Miltenberger (not dog specific but an excellent resource on operant & classical conditioning)

It's also been highly recommended for me to attend as many seminars as I can. So far, there haven't been any in my area and its not affordable for me to travel at this time so I've purchased a few seminars on DVD in the meantime.

I know you didn't ask about videos but I wanted to mention one really great video that I think you could learn a lot about body language from:
Language of Dogs by Sarah Kalnajs

Good luck!

Last edited by opokki; 09-09-2006 at 04:16 PM.
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  #46  
Old 09-09-2006, 04:39 PM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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It's clear that you don't either as all of the things that you THOUGHT were true, I've explained....
No, you haven't. You still haven't explained how ABC can offer ANYTHING that one cannot learn elsewhere. Seriously, if they've got some secret about dog training stashed away and only paying customers know it, therefor making them better trainers than the rest of us, please say so. Maybe that would justify the price.

All you've explained is that in your opinion it's irresponsible not to be certified. Which is a bias opinion, much like my opinion that you can do perfectly WITHOUT being certified is probably bias.

I honestly think this is partly a cultural difference. I've never been to Canada, I don't know how dog training is done over there, but it seems like having certifaction is more widly expected for trainers. Is this correct? The fact that you imply your clients ask about it all the time, and your vets only referr to trainers who have it makes me think this is true.

Quote:
Be honest at least with yourself silver, this has very little to do with ABC...
And what exactly does it have to do with? Please inform me of what my motive is...because you've lost me.

Quote:
You will see a shift away from "self taught" trainers to protect the public and their dogs. You seem to think that looking into it for yourself would be admitting defeat. Quite the opposite is true Silverpawz, many of the best trainers take that extra step because admitting that they don't know it all shows strength in character and committment to providing the best they can to their clients.
When did I ever say I knew it all? How would looking into it be admitting defeat? If you've got some tidbits of infromation that would make me go "OH, of course, NOW I see where she's coming from" by all means share it. I'm not opposed to learning more about the program, but the opinion of someone who is currently working for the company (all be it unpaid it seems) is not one that I give much credit to. Of course you'll sing it's praises, that's expected. It's like a telemarketeer that can't stop going on about how wonderful their product is even though that majority of customers would never buy it.

Quote:
I only hope that you require more information from your clients before delivering your "informed" decision on the cases you handle.
Now now, that's getting close to a personal shot again. Can't we keep those out of the discussion? I know you're offended, but please, if you feel the need to make a point can't you do so withut personal shots? It's possible, honest, if you just try real hard.

Ya know, maybe you're right, maybe this ISN'T about ABC, heck if you want me to say I have no problem with them fine, I'm neutral about ABC, feel better?

Maybe I souldn't have used the word 'worthless' in my first post, I should have known that would get your hackles up. So for being an instigator when I wasn't trying to be one, I'm sorry. That doesn't change the fact that someone can become a great dog trainer without going to a training school. It's not required, it's over priced, and it doesn't offer anything you cannot get else where.

Again, if you are so convinced that these training schools offer something special that isn't available anywhere else, SAY SO. Otherwise you're just spouting praise for company you work for and I'm done reading it.
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  #47  
Old 09-09-2006, 04:54 PM
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[QUOTE=silverpawz;443025]No, you haven't. You still haven't explained how ABC can offer ANYTHING that one cannot learn elsewhere. Seriously, if they've got some secret about dog training stashed away and only paying customers know it, therefor making them better trainers than the rest of us, please say so. Maybe that would justify the price.
I have told you what they cover. You choose to dismiss it.



When did I ever say I knew it all? How would looking into it be admitting defeat? If you've got some tidbits of infromation that would make me go "OH, of course, NOW I see where she's coming from" by all means share it. I'm not opposed to learning more about the program, but the opinion of someone who is currently working for the company (all be it unpaid it seems) is not one that I give much credit to. I will post this one last time in hopes that you actually read it. I do not work for ABC. I am a consumer just like the OP, I went through the program and found it worthwhile. ABC hires mentors who are certified by many reputable schools in order to send their student on to an apprenticeship. My opinions are based solely on my experience with the course itself and hold absolutely NO BIAS. I don't work for CPDT either but have personal experience that I thought would be helpful to the OP.

Ya know, maybe you're right, maybe this ISN'T about ABC, heck if you want me to say I have no problem with them fine, I'm neutral about ABC, feel better? It really doesn't matter anyway, your points are lost in the fact that they have no basis.
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  #48  
Old 09-09-2006, 05:01 PM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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Quote:
I have told you what they cover. You choose to dismiss it.
Yes, you've told me what they cover, which is nothing special. You obviously don't have an answer about how they can offer anything unique to potential dog trainers.

Quote:
I will post this one last time in hopes that you actually read it. I do not work for ABC. I am a consumer just like the OP, I went through the program and found it worthwhile. ABC hires mentors who are certified by many reputable schools in order to send their student on to an apprenticeship.
So you're unpaid, but you put in the time right? You accept green trainers from this company to help train? That's called work.
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  #49  
Old 09-09-2006, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverpawz View Post
Yes, you've told me what they cover, which is nothing special. You obviously don't have an answer about how they can offer anything unique to potential dog trainers.



So you're unpaid, but you put in the time right? You accept green trainers from this company to help train? That's called work.
Listen, it's quite clear that you want to keep this going. I, however am done. I will not read any more of your posts.
Paid, unpaid (??) ..I took the course, plain and simple. I do not work for ABC or anyone else, and gain nothing by my honest assessment of their program other than to help the OP. Why don't you get that?
I help many aspiring trainers from many different sources, but since you brought it up...ABC grads do stand out as being more prepared and educated than most. You'll notice below that I also recommend a few books by several well known authors, just in case you're wondering...I don't work for any of them either.


TO THE OP, I AM TRULY SORRY THAT THIS THREAD ENDED UP THE WAY THAT IT DID. I WILL CONTINUE TO TRY TO HELP YOU THROUGH PM'S AS THIS HAS JUST GOTTEN OUT OF HAND. YOU ALSO HAVE THE BENEFIT OF THE OTHER ABC STUDENT (OPOKKI) TO HELP YOU TO MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION.

DOG TRAINING IS REALLY A TERRIFIC AND REWARDING FIELD, I KNOW YOU WON'T REGRET CHOOSING THIS AS A CAREER. GOOD LUCK!
OH, AND THE BOOK LIST IS GREAT. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, ANYTHING BY JEAN DONALDSON, PAM DENNISON, PAT MCCONNELL, IAN DUNBAR, PAM REID, PAT MILLER...ESPECIALLY THE MORE RECENT STUFF, ARE ALL GOOD BETS
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  #50  
Old 09-09-2006, 05:33 PM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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I, however am done. I will not read any more of your posts.
You've done a good job of ignoreing my question about what ABC can offer that's unique, so I'm not supprised you're bowing out. Can't provide an answer so the logical thing to do is ignore and pretend you didn't hear it.

I have no desire to keep this going either. Perfectly happy to drop it. I can only hope that I give any potential trainers who read this thread pause for thought about if they really need to enroll in a training course.

Quote:
JEAN DONALDSON, PAM DENNISON, PAT MCCONNELL, IAN DUNBAR, PAM REID, PAT MILLER
All very respected trainers. And if I'm not mistaken, none have taken a course at ABC to get where they are today. I rest my case.
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