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  #31  
Old 09-08-2006, 08:46 PM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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I said I like the idea of an official standard. If only to weed out the extremly harsh trainers.

But ya know, after pondering it a bit more, how would anyone create such a standard when the viewpoint of methods are so varied. What you may consider harsh, I may not and visa versa. Do we outlaw all collar corrections? Do we force all trainers to use purely positive methods?

I'm all for a standard that proposes a certain rule of ethics when dealing with clients and opposes any harsh physical corrections on dogs, but again, harsh is a matter of opinion and that's where I see the problem.

Mordy, my viewpoint is simply that someone can become a successful and educated trainer without attending a training school. It happens all the time. That's all I'm trying to say.

Last edited by silverpawz; 09-08-2006 at 09:08 PM.
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  #32  
Old 09-08-2006, 08:59 PM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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I can't imagine resting on my laurels in an industry where the science is changing at this rate.
Did I ever say I was resting on my laurals? No, I don't think so.

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Again, just your PASSIVE...OPINION!
Just becasue I know you've attended that school does not mean I have to sing it's praises. If I think their certification is not worth more than the paper it's printed on, then I have every right to say so. I don't think I should have to censor my opinion just to make sure I don't hurt your feelings. I'm not taking a personal shot at YOU, I'm expressing my dislike for a company.

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Where in the program do they teach clicker training first of all, and varried degrees of aversives are taught (while diplomatically discouraged for good reason) throughout. It is then left up to the apprentice to decide. Abuse is not tollerated and I can't imagine why anyone would want it any other way.
From their site:
Quote:
This stage is designed to teach you these principles along with many specific training strategies, including, classical conditioning and operant conditioning. Included in this stage are step by step instructions for "Charging up the Clicker, the 21st Century Way", written by Ms. Karen Pryor, a world recognized scientist and author. Ms. Pryor is a founder and leading proponent of clicker training, a worldwide movement involving new ways to communicate positively with pets and other animals.
Well it says in on their website they teach clicker training. (gasp, I looked there, heaven help me) If that's not true than they should remove it.

Really, they teach aversives? They teach how to give a proper collar correction? How to have proper timing? How to use an ecollar correctly? Seriously?

Who said anything about abuse? I didn't.
Is that what you think I advocate? Stringing dogs along and correcting the snot out of them? If so you're very much off the mark.

Just because a method differs from the one you've chosen to use does not make it abuse.

Last edited by silverpawz; 09-08-2006 at 09:10 PM.
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  #33  
Old 09-08-2006, 09:28 PM
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[QUOTE=silverpawz;442415]Did I ever say I was resting on my laurals? No, I don't think so.


Just becasue I know you've attended that school does not mean I have to sing it's praises. If I think their certification is not worthy more than the paper it's printed on, then I have every right to say so. I don't think I should have to censor my opinion just to make sure I don't hurt your feelings. I'm not taking a personal shot at YOU, I'm expressing my dislike for a company.
No one asked you to sing it's praises but please don't try to hide behind your "it's not an attack" slant. Saying that a certification that you have not taken but know someone else has, is worthless .....it is what it is. Express your opinion for a certification you know something about and you may be taken seriously...
AGAIN, your opinion on something you are versed in would be valuable. You have no possible way of knowing about of forming an opinion on a course you have not taken.




From their site:

Well it says in on their website they teach clicker training. (gasp, I looked tere, heaven help me) If that's not true than they should remove it.
Really, they teach aversives? They teach how to give a proper collar correction? How to have proper timing? How to use an ecollar correctly? Seriously? Karen Pryor is on the board. For heaven sakes silverpaws, didn't you say that you clicker train....isn't Karen worthy enough for you to respect? Actually YES, they absolutely do show how to use a choke chain (notice I didn't call it a "training collar") the way it was designed to be used. They cover in detail physical punishment as well in a very open minded but research based manor....and the consequences of these techniques. I have to add that the fact that you ask the questions that you do about the program just illustrates your lack of knowledge about it. I thought you knew all about ABC. It appears your opinions are weaker than I originally thought.. I suggest you ask all of those ABC graduates that you "know" about the course again and the section of corrections.

Who said anything about abuse? I didn't.
Is that what you think I advocate? Stringing dogs along and correcting the snot out of them? If so you're very much off the mark.

Read the post, I never said that you're abusive...as a matter of fact I gave you an example of why I thought you'd agree.
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  #34  
Old 09-08-2006, 09:41 PM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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Karen Pryor is on the board. For heaven sakes silverpaws, didn't you say that you clicker train....isn't Karen worthy enough for you to respect?
Never said I didn't respect her. I may not agree with her 100%, but I suppose that's true of many people who choose to do things differently.
You asked where they said they teach clicker training. I provided the example.

Quote:
Actually YES, they absolutely do show how to use a choke chain (notice I didn't call it a "training collar") the way it was designed to be used. They cover in detail physical punishment as well in a very open minded but research based manor....and the consequences of these techniques.
So in other words you're saying they teach some aversives but make it clear that no one should use them? How is that being unbiased and allowing a trainer to come to their own conclusions?

Quote:
I have to add that the fact that you ask the questions that you do about the program just illustrates your lack of knowledge about it. I thought you knew all about ABC. It appears your opinions are weaker than I originally thought.. I suggest you ask all of those ABC graduates that you "know" about the course again and the section of corrections.
I never said I knew all about them. I said I'm basing my opinion on them on what I do know. I've openly stated that I never took the course.

So now you're implying that I'm lieing about knowing a trainer who graduated from ABC? Or that I've seen trainers working dogs who have graduated from there?

I'm a liar now? Nice. Thanks for that.

I have discussed the program with her, But I'm asking YOU these questions because I want to hear YOUR answers. I'm having a 'converstation' with YOU, not her.

Quote:
No one asked you to sing it's praises but please don't try to hide behind your "it's not an attack" slant. Saying that a certification that you have not taken but know someone else has, is worthless .....it is what it is. Express your opinion for a certification you know something about and you may be taken seriously..
If you want to take what I've said personally I can't stop you. But that's not how it was intended. I'm not angry at you, but obviously I've ruffled some feathers of yours. I'm not sure why you cannot seem discuss this topic without getting upset.

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AGAIN, your opinion on something you are versed in would be valuable. You have no possible way of knowing about of forming an opinion on a course you have not taken.
You don't have to take me seriously. It's quite obvious you think I'm full of crap and that's perfectly fine.
The majority of my opinions in this thread are about how someone can become a trainer WITHOUT the use of ABC's program. And I think I'm more than well versed in that since I've done it myself.
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  #35  
Old 09-08-2006, 10:07 PM
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[QUOTE=silverpawz;442471]Never said I didn't respect her. I may not agree with her 100%, but I suppose that's true of many people who choose to do things differently.
You asked where they said they teach clicker training. I provided the example. But it isn't taught in the manual, it's discussed as a method of positive training. I'm looking at the manual right now, while you're searching for snippets on the web???



So in other words you're saying they teach some aversives but make it clear that no one should use them? How is that being unbiased and allowing a trainer to come to their own conclusions?
That's not what I said. They provide the research as it stands without bias, funny how you would read that (consequences) as telling someone not to use them.



I never said I knew all about them. I said I'm basing my opinion on them on what I do know. I've openly stated that I never took the course.

So now you're implying that I'm lieing about knowing a trainer who graduated from ABC? Or that I've seen trainers working dogs who have graduated from there?

I'm a liar now? Nice. Thanks for that. I'm simply a little shocked that your facts are far off the mark, have to wonder why that is. I did not mean to call you a liar, and I'll assume you didn't mean to call my certification worthless either...

I have discussed the program with her, But I'm asking YOU these questions because I want to hear YOUR answers. I'm having a 'converstation' with YOU, not her.



If you want to take what I've said personally I can't stop you. But that's not how it was intended. I'm not angry at you, but obviously I've ruffled some feathers of yours. I'm not sure why you cannot seem discuss this topic without getting upset.
Silverpawz, I'll bet if we were sitting accross from one another we would probably both be surprised to find how much we agree on, but you cannot expect me to feel that you're second hand information and subsequent negative views are anything other than empty arguement.


You don't have to take me seriously. It's quite obvious you think I'm full of crap and that's perfectly fine. I don't know how you are as a trainer, or as a person for that matter. All you've given me to go on is your opinion of something you have few facts about.The majority of my opinions in this thread are about how someone can become a trainer WITHOUT the use of ABC's program. And I think I'm more than well versed in that since I've done it myself. I too became a trainer without the benefit of a formal education and I can honestly say that I'm much better for having gone back to university and completing the certifications and courses that I have.

I think that at this point we'll have to agree to disagree. I value continued formal education and believe that it keeps me current and helps me to provide my clients with the best service and care possible. I am and have always been an education junkie. I've always looked at learning (from many sources including formal/school) as something that once absorbed is mine to keep to do with what I see fit....a gift. Heck, I learn so much from my clients, their dogs, my students...all are valuable. I still believe that someone starting out can benefit from this and other certification programs designed by top professionals in our industry....JMHO...peace out...
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  #36  
Old 09-08-2006, 10:15 PM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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But it isn't taught in the manual, it's discussed as a method of positive training. I'm looking at the manual right now, while you're searching for snippets on the web???
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I'm simply a little shocked that your facts are far off the mark, have to wonder why that is. I did not mean to call you a liar, and I'll assume you didn't mean to call my certification worthless either...
Ah, now who's being passive aggressive??
And yes, I did mean to call it worthless. I think it is. I've been clear about that. That doesn't mean I think YOU are a worthless trainer. For all I know you could be the second coming of dog trainers and the next dog whisperer. Who am I to say you aren't.

I don't know you, I don't know what you've done since recieving your certification, so how can I judge you?

Quote:
Silverpawz, I'll bet if we were sitting accross from one another we would probably both be surprised to find how much we agree on, but you cannot expect me to feel that you're second hand information and subsequent negative views are anything other than empty arguement.
You've attended this school and are obviously happy with what they provided you, so of course you're going to give the opinion that it's wonderful and anyone who doesn't like it is full of 'empty arguments'. I'd bet that if I DID take the course and still thought it was worthless you'd STILL think I was off my nut. Because you've been pleased with your experience you seem very blinded to the possibility that not everyone was happy with theirs or that ABC may not be turing out the most qualified trainers.

But that's beside the point. The only thing I was trying to say in this thread is that a training school like ABC is not REQUIRED to become a great trainer. That there ARE other options and that those options can produce great trainers. If you are not willing to accept that then I can't make you.
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  #37  
Old 09-08-2006, 11:24 PM
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[QUOTE=silverpawz;442513]Ah, now who's being passive aggressive??
And yes, I did mean to call it worthless. I think it is. I've been clear about that. That doesn't mean I think YOU are a worthless trainer. For all I know you could be the second coming of dog trainers and the next dog whisperer. Who am I to say you aren't.
OMG, I was actually serious about not calling you a liar....passive aggressive..WHAT? So much for the benefit of the doubt.... (takes WORTHLESS certification and sulks away....) There's just no reasoning with you....WHAT NEXT?

I don't know you, I don't know what you've done since recieving your certification, so how can I judge you?



You've attended this school and are obviously happy with what they provided you, so of course you're going to give the opinion that it's wonderful and anyone who doesn't like it is full of 'empty arguments'. I'd bet that if I DID take the course and still thought it was worthless you'd STILL think I was off my nut. Now there's a thought! Much more useful to just make assumptions and argue those to death.. Because you've been pleased with your experience you seem very blinded to the possibility that not everyone was happy with theirs or that ABC may not be turing out the most qualified trainers.But that's exactly my point, you haven't attended and it seem's that those you know that have, haven't relayed the information accurately if at all.
You insist on calling a certificate worthless even though you know nothing about the school or curriculum...does that sound reasonable to you? Nuff said.
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  #38  
Old 09-08-2006, 11:41 PM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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OMG, I was actually serious about not calling you a liar....passive aggressive..WHAT? So much for the benefit of the doubt.... (takes WORTHLESS certification and sulks away....) There's just no reasoning with you....WHAT NEXT?
Come on. You honestly want me to believe you were being serious about not calling me a liar when you ended that phrase with "and I'll assume you didn't mean to call my certification worthless"
That came across as sarcastic and yes, passive aggressive.

Quote:
But that's exactly my point, you haven't attended and it seem's that those you know that have, haven't relayed the information accurately if at all.
Just because I know someone who was not pleased with the program does not mean she's relaying inaccurate information. She's just not pleased with it. Why is it so hard to understand that someone may not think ABC is the greatest thing since sliced bread and have valid reasons for thinking so?

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haven't relayed the information accurately if at all.
And again with the liar implication. This "if at all" statement comes across as you saying I'm lieing about hearing someone's opinion of the school they attended.

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You insist on calling a certificate worthless even though you know nothing about the school or curriculum...does that sound reasonable to you? Nuff said.
I know enough to make an informed desicion on if I'd reccommend that someone take the course or not. I'm not saying that every trainer who comes out of there is horrid at their job. Not at all. I'm sure some of them go on to futher their education, form their own opinions on methods, and make a successful business.

But from what I've seen and herd about the school from someone who has attended ABC and from other trainers who know more than I do about it, my opinion is that it's not worth the money and that they don't provide anything you cannot learn elsewhere as well.

If that offends you I'm sorry. I can't do anything about that.

Last edited by silverpawz; 09-09-2006 at 12:32 AM.
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  #39  
Old 09-09-2006, 12:29 AM
opokki opokki is offline
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Originally Posted by dr2little View Post
Are you enjoying the course? I'd love to hear the perspective of a current ABC student. What do you think about your instructor? There are a few people who would really benefit from hearing first hand from someone other than me (an ABC mentor). While I am not bias, your insight might be more useful to someone who wants to become a trainer.
So far so good but I'm really only just getting started on Stage 1. My material just came a few days ago so I haven't formed much of an opinion just yet but I will be sure to let you know as I get further into the course.
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  #40  
Old 09-09-2006, 12:40 AM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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Opokki, please come back and tell us what you thought of the course once you're finished. I'd be very interested to hear your view on the whole thing once it's completed.
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