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  #21  
Old 09-08-2006, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by silverpawz View Post
So are you saying that anyone who hasn't taken a course from ABC or another training school is automatically an uneducted trainer? That's a pretty big blanket statement. You're basicly implying that it's impossible to find a great trainer to apprentice under, and I assure you it's far from impossible.

Again, I'm not attacking YOU and I'd appreciate the same respect in return. I don't think that's too much to ask.
I think that if you go back and read your own posts, you'll see the many comments that you made that set the scene for my reply's. To offer as an opinion that you would have been wasting your money achieving a certification that you know full well I have, especially since you have no first hand knowledge of said program is less than passive silverpawz. You say you are trying to offer your point of view but you have nothing but lousy things to say about a program that like you say YOU'VE NEVER TAKEN......
I would have been happy to discuss this program with you or anyone who either wanted information or knew first hand what it was about but all you wanted to do was argue against the value of something you know nothing about. I do think that it is unwise to seek out a trainer as a potential mentor when you're someone who is clearly is in the beginning stages of a career path. There are trainers here in my city who from the standpoint of a perspective apprentice would appear to be very successful. Many such trainers routinely use chin slaps, knees to the chest, lip pinches and alpha rolls ...among other totally unnecessary abusive "methods". There needs to be some standard of conduct so that these people are forced out or encouraged to evolve. Anyone can throw up a sign and set up shop without more than "self proclaimed" expertise. Gosh, look at Cesar Milan. There are few industries that allow such a cavalier approach. I would think that you, as a trainer, would be happy to see regulations at least in their infancy for the safety of dogs and owners and the credibility, conduct and ethics of trainers. I still don't have a clue why you wanted to argue about a course that you've never taken or why you would give advise to someone without being properly versed on your subject.
Oh, and just to be clear, I may take another course/certification if the opportunity and challenge presents itself...as I whole heartedly believe that one never knows it all. Another problem with trainers who believe that they don't need to become certified (something that will someday be mandatory) is that they DO miss out on current information in this ever changing industry.
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  #22  
Old 09-08-2006, 07:16 PM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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Another problem with trainers who believe that they don't need to become certified (something that will someday be mandatory) is that they DO miss out on current information in this ever changing industry.
And this makes it seem like you are saying that getting certified is the only way to get this knowledge. Which I don't agree with.

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I would think that you, as a trainer, would be happy to see regulations at least in their infancy for the safety of dogs and owners and the credibility, conduct and ethics of trainers. I still don't have a clue why you wanted to argue about a course that you've never taken or why you would give advise to someone without being properly versed on your subject.
Of course I want there to be standards for dog training. I just don't think that someone needs to attend ABC to learn them.

So I can't offer my viewpoint unless I've taken the course? I have to spend $3000 to give my opinion?

I don't understand why you are so against the idea that someone can learn and be a successful, well balanced trainer by apprenticing instead of attending a training school. I know of some very famous and very well respected trainers that never attended such a school. I also know of many others personally that never attended one either.

CPDT and ABC are only two group's opinions on how to train a dog. Not the only way.

Someone can become a great trainer without ABC or schools like it. THAT is my point. The proof of a good trainer is in their success, not in their 'credientials'.

And you haven't answered my question. What exactly does ABC offer that one absolutly cannot get elsewhere?

Last edited by silverpawz; 09-08-2006 at 07:27 PM.
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  #23  
Old 09-08-2006, 07:37 PM
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How about looking at the other side of the trainer/apprentice relationship?

If you had two applicants who are looking to work with you, and appear to be equally talented otherwise, but one of them has put in the dedication and effort to complete coursework as a foundation while the other has done nothing in that direction other than maybe reading a few books, who would you pick?

I don't train other people's dogs anymore, but work in other fields, and for me it has always paid off to take on people who strive to immerse themselves in a topic as much as possible, and who feel capable of challenging me on issues until they are satisfied, instead of just following my lead.
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  #24  
Old 09-08-2006, 07:43 PM
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If you had two applicants who are looking to work with you, and appear to be equally talented otherwise, but one of them has put in the dedication and effort to complete coursework as a foundation while the other has done nothing in that direction other than maybe reading a few books, who would you pick?
Depends. Has the one who went to a training school done anything ELSE to further their knowledge? If they continued to apprentice under someone and/or persued more hands on experience through training rescue dogs, going to seminars, and learning about all methods, then sure, I may hire them.

If the person who has only read book, ONLY read books, then no, I would not hire them unless they expressed a serious desire to learn and start from the bottom to work their way up.

Ideally if I was looking for a trainer to hire, not one to train myself from scratch, I'd hire one that has apprenticed under another trainer that I know of and respect, has gotten tons of hands on experience, and can demonstrate for me that they can work several different dogs easily BEFORE I would hire one that simply went to a training school.
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  #25  
Old 09-08-2006, 07:55 PM
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[QUOTE=silverpawz;442282]And this makes it seem like you are saying that getting certified is the only way to get this knowledge. Which I don't agree with.Again, if you go back and read my post you'll see that I fully believe that experience is invaluable but that alone does not IMO, a trainer make.

Of course I want there to be standards for dog training. I just don't think that someone needs to attend ABC to learn them.
OK, so even though you've never attended ABC, you have decided that their information has no value. How about CPDT? Like Mordy said, at some point someone is going to have to take responsibility for helping to make this an honest, kind and effective and YES...PROFESSIONAL industry. Why not institute some kind of standards, especially when..(if you look at who is on the board of both bodies that I recommended), the people running the seminars that you've said you attend are the ones taking on this challenge.

So I can't offer my viewpoint unless I've taken the course? I have to spend $3000 to give my opinion?
How bout if I talk about the gal that mentored you. I've never met her, don't know her training styles or if she's worth her weight as a trainer....but let me share my opinion on her..... How on earth can you give your opinion on a course you've never taken??????

I don't understand why you are so against the idea that someone can learn and be a successful, well balanced trainer by apprenticing instead of attending a training school. I know of some very famous and very well respected trainers that never attended such a school. I also know of many others personally that never attended one either.
The problem as I see it is that, and I'm sure you'll agree, too many trainers make up the rules as they go along. I hear things like "just give him a leash correction for this" or "he needs a choke collar for that" from so many trainers who sit in their bubble for years and years and never try to do better. I am frustrated. I do as many or more difficult and varied cases without the use of such things simply because I took the time to learn a better way. Education is invaluable. You can not compare a well thought out certification process to learning something from a trainer who is not certified who learned it from another "self" taught trainer. Again, have you looked into the CPDT cert? I wouldn't have even recommended ABC for someone like you anyway. From what I gather, you are already training dogs and the CPDT is a better fit for someone with prior knowledge/experience. For the OP, ABC was my recommendation as she asked about certification....and where to start.
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  #26  
Old 09-08-2006, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by silverpawz View Post
Ideally if I was looking for a trainer to hire, not one to train myself from scratch, I'd hire one that has apprenticed under another trainer that I know of and respect, has gotten tons of hands on experience, and can demonstrate for me that they can work several different dogs easily BEFORE I would hire one that simply went to a training school.
I understand where you are coming from - but people who want to go on to become trainers have to start somewhere, which is exactly what we are talking about here. The OP asked for pointers on how to get started.

Thus I'm talking about people here who want to start gathering experience, not people who already have quite a bit of it under their belt from other working situations.

A program like what ABC offers (not to say they are the only ones or that I'm in any way biased towards them) builds a solid foundation. During the ABC practicum/internship for example, which lasts up to around 20 weeks I believe, students get hands-on experience in "real world" situations as well as a detailed theoretical education. This company is setting the standard to what may very well become the "official standard" you are looking for.

Pioneers doing the groundwork have to exist. Sadly, in areas where things are still developing, it almost always seems to be the case that these pioneers are denigrated in the beginning, until what they do becomes more mainstream, and then everyone jumps on the bandwagon.
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  #27  
Old 09-08-2006, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by silverpawz View Post
Depends. Has the one who went to a training school done anything ELSE to further their knowledge? If they continued to apprentice under someone and/or persued more hands on experience through training rescue dogs, going to seminars, and learning about all methods, then sure, I may hire them.

If the person who has only read book, ONLY read books, then no, I would not hire them unless they expressed a serious desire to learn and start from the bottom to work their way up.

Ideally if I was looking for a trainer to hire, not one to train myself from scratch, I'd hire one that has apprenticed under another trainer that I know of and respect, has gotten tons of hands on experience, and can demonstrate for me that they can work several different dogs easily BEFORE I would hire one that simply went to a training school.
Who ever said that certification was all that was needed. I think that we all agree that would be a ridiculous notion. However, as I stated in my other post, ABC has an apprenticeship program that requires students to observe at least 2 (6-8week) sessions, then to assist in teaching (2 more 6-8week sessions) and finally to teach while being observed. That's AFTER successfully completing an 80% or better in I believe 12 exams on everything from breed specs., disease/illness, class structure, legal issues, business practices...many training styles and more. How many apprentices approach you with that kind of technical and practical experience. Yes they're still raw, but much more prepared than the average dog enthusiast....believe me, I'm approached all the time and the difference is painfully obvious.
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  #28  
Old 09-08-2006, 08:09 PM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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Again, have you looked into the CPDT cert? I wouldn't have even recommended ABC for someone like you anyway. From what I gather, you are already training dogs and the CPDT is a better fit for someone with prior knowledge/experience.
And again I say, CPDT is only one group's opinion on how to train a dog. Not the only way. I don't need that designation after my name to prove that I can train dogs and I've done just fine without it as have many other professional trainers.

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How bout if I talk about the gal that mentored you. I've never met her, don't know her training styles or if she's worth her weight as a trainer....but let me share my opinion on her..... How on earth can you give your opinion on a course you've never taken??????
Feel free. I'll be happy to say she wasn't perfect. She had her flaws as every trainer does.

I can give my opinion based on what a fellow trainer has told me about taking the course, what I've witnessed in quite a few petco trainers who've taken their courses, and what I've read about them from people with personal experience. I don't have to like them. That's my right. Just as it's your right to love them.

Quote:
The problem as I see it is that, and I'm sure you'll agree, too many trainers make up the rules as they go along. I hear things like "just give him a leash correction for this" or "he needs a choke collar for that" from so many trainers who sit in their bubble for years and years and never try to do better. I am frustrated. I do as many or more difficult and varied cases without the use of such things simply because I took the time to learn a better way. Education is invaluable. You can not compare a well thought out certification process to learning something from a trainer who is not certified who learned it from another "self" taught trainer.
Sure I can. And I am. Especially if I don't believe that certification is worth anything. I personally feel apprenticing under an experienced trainer for a year or more far outweighs anything ABC could possibly teach.

ABC is a well thought out certification, from ONE GROUP of people who see things their way. As I said before their way is not the only way. Just like my mentor's way is not the only way.

I learned from her, but I took it upon myself to further my knowledge as well.
Which anyone else can do too without the help of ABC.

ETA:
Quote:
many training styles and more.
What training styles are you saying they teach aside from positive and clicker training. Please explain.

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I am frustrated. I do as many or more difficult and varied cases without the use of such things simply because I took the time to learn a better way.
And this is treading into a method debate which I won't touch except to say that it's 'better' by your standards. That doesn't mean it's better by everyone's.
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  #29  
Old 09-08-2006, 08:36 PM
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silverpawz, I don't quite get your point of view though. On one hand you want some sort of "official standard" to which trainers are held, yet on the other hand you believe that for example "apprenticing under an experienced trainer for a year or more far outweighs anything ABC could possibly teach".

Training philosophies completely aside here, that way it will never be possible to develop, let alone maintain, any "official standard", since in order to achieve that, there is no way around an organized group setting a precedent ("we teach people ___ and ___"), presenting results from a large enough sample to be evaluated ("our principles work well to achieve ___ and ___ and at the same time avoid ___"), which then in turn may become the skeleton of said standards.
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  #30  
Old 09-08-2006, 08:43 PM
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[QUOTE=silverpawz;442372]And again I say, CPDT is only one group's opinion on how to train a dog. Not the only way. I don't need that designation after my name to prove that I can train dogs and I've done just fine without it as have many other professional trainers.
I can't imagine resting on my laurels in an industry where the science is changing at this rate. As for the Groups that you keep referring to. They are the scientists, Vets and Vet. Behaviorists who support certification (again refer to CPDT)...._ and make it their lifes work to truly do the research so that we do better for our dogs. I'm genuinely surprised that you don't find that not only worth while but very valuable. You said you attend seminars, who DO you find worth listening to then?



Feel free. I'll be happy to say she wasn't perfect. She had her flaws as every trainer does.
I was being fasicous, making the point that my opinion would hold as little value as I don't know her....????

I can give my opinion based on what a fellow trainer has told me about taking the course, what I've witnessed in quite a few petco trainers who've taken their courses, and what I've read about them from people with personal experience. I don't have to like them. That's my right. Just as it's your right to love them.
Hmmm...why I wonder, have you met so many poor trainers from the program when I have mentored and met so many and had the complete opposite opinion....



Sure I can. And I am. Especially if I don't believe that certification is worth anything. Again, just your PASSIVE...OPINION! I personally feel apprenticing under an experienced trainer for a year or more far outweighs anything ABC could possibly teach.

ABC is a well thought out certification, from ONE GROUP of people who see things their way. As I said before their way is not the only way. Just like my mentor's way is not the only way.

I learned from her, but I took it upon myself to further my knowledge as well.
Which anyone else can do too without the help of ABC.

ETA:

What training styles are you saying they teach aside from positive and clicker training. Please explain. Where in the program do they teach clicker training first of all, and varried degrees of aversives are taught (while diplomatically discouraged for good reason) throughout. It is then left up to the apprentice to decide. Abuse is not tollerated and I can't imagine why anyone would want it any other way.
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