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  #11  
Old 09-07-2006, 11:32 PM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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I'm not sure why anyone would steer someone away from an education...
I would steer them away from it because like I said, there is no governing body that has exact standards for the dog training profession that every school must adhere to. Many training schools are barely useful at best. Are there some that can provide a decent education? Sure. But they are few and far between and they don't provide anything that you cannot learn from another trainer as well as persueing the knowledge on your own through seminars, shelter dogs, etc.

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Learning from another trainer with "experience" is why there are so many rogue trainers running around using forceful methods taught by old school trainers.
This may be true to a certain degree, but plenty of so called training schools also turn out trainers who have no clue what they're doing when they get their first actual case.

I would MUCH rather work for an experienced trainer who has a successful business set up and learn from them. When someone is looking for a trainer to learn from it is no different than looking for a trainer for their own dog. If they use extremly harsh methods then obviously they're not the right one to be teaching anyone. All it takes is some common sense when searching for the right trainer to apprentice under.

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I agree that a piece of paper doesn't magically a trainer make but it does teach an "experienced" trainer all of the science that they're often sorely missing
All of which one can easily learn without attending such a school. As stated before, working for another trainer can and should teach you that science, it did for me, and there are plenty of other resources out there to help someone learn it.

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It's a shame that your clients don't care about education. I ONLY recommend trainers with both experience and certification and most Vets do the same.
We obviously live in very different areas. I have no problem getting vet referreals, and have never been questioned by a vet about certification either. I see you're in Canada, maybe that's the difference? Is it more widly accepted there that trainers would be certified? Because in the states it's not expected by the majority of owners.

My clients care about what I do to help them. Most don't even realize that someone CAN get certified to be a dog trainer, so why would they ask?

I feel I learned more from the over 100 dogs I trained for my boss when I first started, the classes I ran for her, the various seminars I went too, the multitude of books I read and the dozens of shelter dogs I trained, all before ever starting my own business, then I ever would have at at a training school. I learned from real life experience, in real life situations that often cannot be duplicated.
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  #12  
Old 09-07-2006, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by silverpawz View Post
I would steer them away from it because like I said, there is no governing body that has exact standards for the dog training profession that every school must adhere to. Many training schools are barely useful at best. Are there some that can provide a decent education? Sure. But they are few and far between and they don't provide anything that you cannot learn from another trainer as well as persueing the knowledge on your own through seminars, shelter dogs, etc.

How many of the schools/certifications that I posted are you familiar with?
Be aware silverpawz, both of the ones that I mentioned REQUIRE resuce work and EXPERIENCE before certification is granted. What exactly about ABC or CPDT do you have a problem with? My certifications are a supliment to my university education and I, having Canine Behavior education, find both bodies to be not only beneficial but a great step in instituting much needed regulations. I too attend seminars throughout the year but find those a suppliment to my education and experience.



This may be true to a certain degree, but plenty of so called training schools also turn out trainers who have no clue what they're doing when they get their first actual case.

I would MUCH rather work for an experienced trainer who has a successful business set up and learn from them. When someone is looking for a trainer to learn from it is no different than looking for a trainer for their own dog. If they use extremly harsh methods then obviously they're not the right one to be teaching anyone. All it takes is some common sense when searching for the right trainer to apprentice under.

Sadly again, that's exactly the mentality that gets an inexperienced trainer wanna be in trouble.



All of which one can easily learn without attending such a school. As stated before, working for another trainer can and should teach you that science, it did for me, and there are plenty of other resources out there to help someone learn it.



We obviously live in very different areas. I have no problem getting vet referreals, and have never been questioned by a vet about certification either. I see you're in Canada, maybe that's the difference? Is it more widly accepted there that trainers would be certified? Because in the states it's not expected by the majority of owners.

My clients care about what I do to help them. Most don't even realize that someone CAN get certified to be a dog trainer, so why would they ask?

I feel I've learned more from the over 100 dogs I trained for my boss when I first started, the classes I ran for her, the various seminars I went too, the multitude of books I read and the dozens of shelter dogs I trained, then I ever would have at at a training school. I learned from real life experience, in real life situations that often cannot be duplicated.
I'd love to hear your reasons pertaining to the schools that I posted. I am a mentor for the ABC program. I don't work for them but believe in what they do and the changes that are slowly happening because of schools like this. I'm not understanding your motives in poopooing HIGHER EDUCATION. I get nothing out of recommending certification except the satisfaction in helping someone do it right. Don't you think that clients and their dogs deserve the most experience and education a trainer can provide?
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  #13  
Old 09-08-2006, 12:15 AM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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For starters the ABC college provides trainers for Petco...and if the way many of those trainers handle dogs is any indication of how good their training is....run far away. Are there some good trainers at pet stores?

Of course, I'm sure there are some out there, I've even herd of them from fellow dog people, but if all of them go through this course and at least the majority of them are NOT coming out knowing what they're doing, then something is wrong.

It also seems very stuck on clicker trainer and purely positive training. Which is something I hate to see in anyone that is teaching a potential trainer. This is just a personal opinion of mine of course since I have plenty of tools in my tools box and plenty of ways to approach a problem and I think that other trainers should as well. I have nothing AGAINST clicker training, I use it often, but it's not the end all be all. I don't believe in being stuck in one way of doing things. Again, just me.

The course on aggression is only 7 days long. Seriously, 7 days? Not nearly enough. Even if every tidbit of information known to man on aggression is in that course seven days is not even close to long enough for someone to truly get a grasp on how to handle an aggressive dog. That takes hands on experience and TIME.

Book learning can only take you so far and that's true for all aspects of dog training. Learning it in theory is great, doing it and helping others do it is something else all together.

It also seems to focus very much on the extreme basics. Sit, stay, down, loose leash walking. Which I suppose is fine if all someone ever wants to do is teach basic group classes. But if you want to handle behavior problems, aggression and advanced obedience then apparently you're out of luck. They offer small sections for it, but again, that's not something you can effectivly learn how to deal with by simply reading about it for 28 days or so.

From their page:
Quote:
During this portion, you will work with an ABC Mentor Trainer, observing and participating in the instruction of basic obedience cues, such as, sit, stay, come, down, heel, and loose leash walking. You will have a chance to work with individual dogs under the guidance and supervision of the Mentor Trainer.
Quite frankly someone can learn how to teach that by training thier own dogs and taking some extra classes. It's not rocket science to teach a dog how to sit and lie down. I don't see the need to pay a training school to learn it when there are so many other resources. Basically you're paying to sit in on classes and help the trainer out. At least that's what it sounds like.

ABC doesn't seem to offer ANYTHING that one cannot learn without it.

Seriously, I'm not sure how anyone can say that a course like that can even compare to a year or more of working under an experience trainer and learning the ins and outs of dog training, handling clients, behavior problems and doing it all hands on for a good long time. I don't see how there can even be a question.

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How many of the schools/certifications that I posted are you familiar with?
Be aware silverpawz, both of the ones that I mentioned REQUIRE resuce work and EXPERIENCE before certification is granted.
Replying to this now since I didn't notice it before. I'm familiar with them.
ABC only requires a min. of 10 hours working with shelter dogs. Not enough, period.

Not to mention it's an average of $3000 tuition which seems very over priced for what they offer. That's money that would be better spent toward building a business than throwing it down the drain for 'education' that you can get elsewhere without the high cost.

Last edited by silverpawz; 09-08-2006 at 01:04 AM.
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  #14  
Old 09-08-2006, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by silverpawz View Post
For starters the ABC college provides trainers for Petco...and if the way many of those trainers handle dogs is any indication of how good their training is....run far away. Are there some good trainers at pet stores?
You obviously went on line to find things to nit pick about just so that you could justify your own lack of education. Petco instructors do not all come from the ABC program. The ABC program does not push clicker training and actually shows the proper way to use aversives for those of you who like to hang on to them. Without the course books in front of you I'm affraid you're left to search the sight and flail through a response. You simply do not have your facts straight...not by a long shot.
Of course, I'm sure there are some out there, I've even herd of them from fellow dog people, but if all of them go through this course and at least the majority of them are NOT coming out knowing what they're doing, then something is wrong.

It also seems very stuck on clicker trainer and purely positive training. Which is something I hate to see in anyone that is teaching a potential trainer. This is just a personal opinion of mine of course since I have plenty of tools in my tools box and plenty of ways to approach a problem and I think that other trainers should as well. I have nothing AGAINST clicker training, I use it often, but it's not the end all be all. I don't believe in being stuck in one way of doing things. Again, just me.

The course on aggression is only 7 days long. Seriously, 7 days? Not nearly enough. Even if every tidbit of information known to man on aggression is in that course seven days is not even close to long enough for someone to truly get a grasp on how to handle an aggressive dog. That takes hands on experience and TIME.
Every student is paired with a course leader, these course leaders make it very clear that this is a place to start, all new students are discouraged from going off and dealing with aggression cases right out of the gate. It's funny but again you seem he!! bent on being negative about something that TEACHES many valuable things that trainers such as yourself can only hope to learn with your stance against education. I mentored my last student from Oct/2005, taking her to all of my private training sessions and through classes. She is still discouraged from handling aggression, something trainers without this program seem all to willing to jump into. She has not been given her certificate yet as she is still being evaluated while teaching.
Book learning can only take you so far and that's true for all aspects of dog training. Learning it in theory is great, doing it and helping others do it is something else all together.Again, you just seem to want to argue about something you know nothing about. This is far more than "book learning" the apprenticeship program is a supervised process with evaluation and support throughout. There is a specific "business" section explaining why a new trainer should stick to very basic class formats - hence the Petco affilliation. It also stresses what can happen when someone bites off more than they can chew.

It also seems to focus very much on the extreme basics. Sit, stay, down, loose leash walking. Which I suppose is fine if all someone ever wants to do is teach basic group classes. But if you want to handle behavior problems, aggression and advanced obedience then apparently you're out of luck. They offer small sections for it, but again, that's not something you can effectivly learn how to deal with by simply reading about it for 28 days or so.

From their page:


Quite frankly someone can learn how to teach that by training thier own dogs and taking some extra classes. It's not rocket science to teach a dog how to sit and lie down. I don't see the need to pay a training school to learn it when there are so many other resources. Basically you're paying to sit in on classes and help the trainer out. At least that's what it sounds like.

Your lack of knowledge and your determination for being negative is becoming quite transparent. First you say how very basic they are and in the next paragraph you say "it's not rocket science". There is far more to this course than your "investigative" work pulled up. I have the course books in front of me, they are extensive...worth $3000.00, maybe not, but worth while..absolutely. Did you check out CPDT? I'd love to hear you slam that as well.

ABC doesn't seem to offer ANYTHING that one cannot learn without it.
Again, this just shows your lack of knowledge about the program. Your arguments are beyond ridiculous, but your motives are quite clear.

Seriously, I'm not sure how anyone can say that a course like that can even compare to a year or more of working under an experience trainer and learning the ins and outs of dog training, handling clients, behavior problems and doing it all hands on for a good long time. I don't see how there can even be a question.
Nothing makes me more angry than an uneducated "trainer" learning from another uneducated trainer. This is how dogs and people get hurt. ABC may be the beginning of a dog trainers career and yes, they (students) of course need to gain experience, but it's far more than most "self professed" trainers have.


Replying to this now since I didn't notice it before. I'm familiar with them.
ABC only requires a min. of 10 hours working with shelter dogs. Not enough, period.
This 10 hours of volunteer work is NOT all of what is required of them. You again choose this supplemental program and act like it's all there is. When you actually know something about the course, maybe then we can discuss it further. Trying to reply to you about this is like discussing a book at a book club where you've failed to read the same book. You're grasping at straws just so that you can justify your lack of credentials...very sad indeed.

Not to mention it's an average of $3000 tuition which seems very over priced for what they offer. That's money that would be better spent toward building a business than throwing it down the drain for 'education' that you can get elsewhere without the high cost.
I would agree that it's pricey. Along with the material though, the students are provided with a mentor for 4 six week (minimum) periods. As for a comment about wasting your money on the course. I am university educated in this field and I certainly don't feel that I wasted my money on this course. If money is your issue, the CPDT is a better option as it takes trainers who are already in the field and challenges them with an exam. It's amazing how many of those "experienced trainers fail that exam.
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Last edited by dr2little; 09-08-2006 at 11:29 AM.
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  #15  
Old 09-08-2006, 12:34 PM
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http://www.tomrose.com/

http://www.triplecrowndogs.com/

These are two highly regarded training facilities. They are often mentioned on the Leerburg site by people who take dog training seriously.
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  #16  
Old 09-08-2006, 05:29 PM
opokki opokki is offline
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Just my opinion -

I think gaining an education is a important first step. Whether this is through a school, books & vidoes, or all of these. This will give you a nice foundation.

I feel that I've learned a great deal from reading books and watching videos along with taking my own dog through various classes. I am a student at Cynology College, I've recently enrolled in Animal Behavior College and I've just begun assisting classes with a local CPDT. I finally feel like I'm getting somewhere now.
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  #17  
Old 09-08-2006, 05:44 PM
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Just my opinion -

I think gaining an education is a important first step. Whether this is through a school, books & vidoes, or all of these. This will give you a nice foundation.

I feel that I've learned a great deal from reading books and watching videos along with taking my own dog through various classes. I am a student at Cynology College, I've recently enrolled in Animal Behavior College and I've just begun assisting classes with a local CPDT. I finally feel like I'm getting somewhere now.
Are you enjoying the course? I'd love to hear the perspective of a current ABC student. What do you think about your instructor? There are a few people who would really benefit from hearing first hand from someone other than me (an ABC mentor). While I am not bias, your insight might be more useful to someone who wants to become a trainer.
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  #18  
Old 09-08-2006, 05:58 PM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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Dr2little, you obviously seem very offended and I don't appreciate you 'slamming' me either. I'm not attacking you personaly, never have in any of my posts, I've never said you were uneducated, and you seem to have missed that point and are bent on making me look like a rouge trainer with no knowledge at all.

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You're grasping at straws just so that you can justify your lack of credentials...very sad indeed.
If you want to argue your viewpoint and actually make some headway with someone you might want to try doing so without taking personal shots at the one you're debating with. You are being very abrassive and frankly that speaks to me of someone who is grasping at straws to justify their own point.

Of course I don't know every detail of the program, I DIDN'T TAKE IT, I know one trainer who has taken it and I've talked with other trainers about it quite frequently as it's a subject that often comes up when when we discuss apprentices and employees. And yes, *gasp*, I have visited their website, *shudder*, how horrible of me.

As to ABC, you even said yourself in your last post that it's not worth the three grand! And yet you reccomend it to others?? Why?

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Again, this just shows your lack of knowledge about the program. Your arguments are beyond ridiculous, but your motives are quite clear.
So because my opinions differ from yours I'm ridiculous? Okay, tell me what's beyond ridiculous. Please, let me know exactly what ABC can provide that someone cannot learn elsewhere. Make your point instead of just calling me ridiculous.

And what are my motives? To save someone some money that they can better use toward their business? To offer the opinion that a trainer can easily learn the required knowledge by apprenticing and not attending ABC? Gosh, I'm a horrible person, you're right.

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This 10 hours of volunteer work is NOT all of what is required of them. You again choose this supplemental program and act like it's all there is. When you actually know something about the course, maybe then we can discuss it further. Trying to reply to you about this is like discussing a book at a book club where you've failed to read the same book.
Well than set me straight by all means, how much to they REALLY require and why don't they make that public knowledge on their site? Because I would think that if they do require more time they'd be eager to let everyone know. I sure as heck couldn't find it anywhere.

Quote:
Nothing makes me more angry than an uneducated "trainer" learning from another uneducated trainer. This is how dogs and people get hurt. ABC may be the beginning of a dog trainers career and yes, they (students) of course need to gain experience, but it's far more than most "self professed" trainers have.
So are you saying that anyone who hasn't taken a course from ABC or another training school is automatically an uneducted trainer? That's a pretty big blanket statement. You're basicly implying that it's impossible to find a great trainer to apprentice under, and I assure you it's far from impossible.

Again, I'm not attacking YOU and I'd appreciate the same respect in return. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Last edited by silverpawz; 09-08-2006 at 06:19 PM.
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  #19  
Old 09-08-2006, 06:29 PM
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I don't want to butt in on your discussion, but I'd like to add another point of view.

Yes, people can learn how to train by working with an established trainer, but in such a situation they are always going to get biased information from that one person's point of view. If he or she doesn't like [insert whatever] for one reason or another, it's very likely that they will pass on that dislike to their apprentice, and I'm not so sure how many such trainers will tell their student "it's something I don't like, but you should still read up on it and take away from that research what you find useful"?

When doing coursework, regardless whether there are "official standards" (and there aren't really many "official standards" in general here in the U.S. compared to other countries) in regards to the profession or not, you will at the very least be presented with a wide array of information, which is hopefully supported by many footnotes and references to supporting research.

You will have to work through your study material and sit for exams, which determine how well you have absorbed and understood that material. There is a certain kind of pressure to succeed, since you aren't going to invest several hundred dollars on something you aren't going to immerse yourself in.

Regardless of what happens next, if you have completed a well put together curriculum of coursework, you have a solid foundation from which you can draw as you learn the practical aspect of training.
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  #20  
Old 09-08-2006, 06:35 PM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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Mordy, you make a good point about some individual trainers being bias toward one method. That certainly does happen, but it's not always the case.

I think it's just as possible to get a bias view from a training school though.
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