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  #41  
Old 09-08-2006, 03:11 PM
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Boemy- lovely post. You are right on the mark about separating the wheat from the chaff in terms of BREEDERS, not dogs. This is exactly how I feel. And I agree- there is a difference between GOOD breeders and EXCELLENT breeders, when I get my breeding program underway, I will strive for EXCELLENCE.


rdmize- let me see if I can address some of your very legitimate concerns regarding conformation competition.

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a dog dose not have to be a Show dog to be bred
I'm confused with this one- didn't I already point out that none of us believe this in the first place? What we do believe is that there should be a legitimate purpose behind breeding besides just "cuteness," or "I want a puppy."

Now I'll move on to the meat of the discussion:

Quote:
So let me state I do see what you are saying about how appearance and build relate to what dogs were original breed for but this don't mean the winner of the dog show would have been the best bear hunter. So let me ask you this. Is there any way that they test behavioral traits? like the lack of obedience? I understand you breed for the correct mind set but can the judges judge for it?

I'll get started on a humorous note. We don't really HAVE to test for lack of obedience in Shibas. Believe me, if you live with one you KNOW. Ask anyone who owns a Shiba what would happen if they were to take their dog off leash in an unfenced area...there's a reason none of us do it.

I suppose if you wanted a more qualitative measure of it you could enter an obedience trial and see how low you score. Hehehe.

Now...it is up to BREEDERS to recognize that conformation competition is NOT the be all end all of whether or not a dog deserves to be bred. Those that don't are often the ones that derail breeds into beautiful but essentially non-functional animals. RD pointed out the problem with show BCs. You see what happens when people ONLY breed for looks, and this, as I've mentioned time and time again, I do not agree with.

But we must also realize that NO institution is perfect. It would be absolutely impossible to have EVERY dog that went into the ring be evaluated by breed EXPERTS (ie: those that know the standard as well as a breeder-judge), in both temperament and physique. It would take DAYS for a show to progress, and frankly, most people do not have that kind of time. So what a judge is looking at is really just a snapshot of a breeder's effort. With that being said- how is one to see whether or not your dog is well-rounded enough to make a decent breed example?

You've GOT to get involved in other things. As a whole, I think we in Shibas do a pretty darn good job.

In Shibas we do more than just AKC shows. We have specialty (read: one breed) NIPPO-style shows that are judged by Japanese Shiba breeders who have spent LIFETIMES in the breed. In the NIPPO shows our dogs are there for HOURS, which allows the judges to get a good feel for the animal's temperament as well as conformation.

They look to see that Shibas display Kan-i, Soboku, and Ryosei. (In a nutshell: spirited boldness, finesse without artifice, and fierce loyalty). The dogs are expected to "stand like little Mt. Fujis," which means that they should hit the end of those show leads, lean forward and HOLD for as long as they're in the ring. We do not hand-stack or bait our dogs, which means that in terms of conformation, what you see is what you get. A correctly built dog will stand correctly NATURALLY.

Ears that become slack, tails that drop, any sign of nervousness around other dogs is to be severely penalized. We often "spar" Shibas like you'll see in terrier rings- the dogs are brought face to face and expected to remain calm and steady. No backing down, no flinching, and certainly no overt displays of aggression. The dog should also maintain a dignified and aloof disposition around other people. He should not be a "wiggle-butt" when the judge comes to evaluate him. Nor should he try to take the judge's hand off. He should submit to an examination with reserve and dignity because he trusts his handler.

Judges give written critiques of each dog, as well as suggestions for ways to improve. Often at these shows, we have conferences that give an in-depth look into various aspects of the breed. One year it might be on learning to hunt with your Shiba, the next it might be on coat type.

Really, these shows are fantastic- more breed clubs should try to do something similar for their own breeds.

But still- this doesn't exactly test the animal's prowess in the field. How does one do THAT?

Now you'll probably agree with me that the average person is simply not well-equipped to go traipsing off into the woods with their Shiba and begin hunting bears (or wild boars...which don't exist in Washington State any way). This isn't exactly legal, nor is it safe. Furthermore, you may morally object to the killing of another living creature for sport (which I do).

So how do you test the worthiness of your breed for it's original function- especially when that original function may be obsolete?

By getting involved in dog sports that make the best approximation.

Shibas are hunters- expected to be good at tracking down quarry. They also MUST be incredibly agile (as you saw from my post describing WHY the standard is the way it is- a slow dog is a dead dog).

When my breeding program gets underway (after I finish up undergrad and actually have TIME), I will begin to put tracking titles on my dogs. I already do agility with both of mine, and will consider proficience at agility necessary for all of my breeding stock. While both are a far cry from actually HUNTING, they are good approximations of the necessary skills.

And another thing that you have to keep in mind- my dogs prove their hunting ability daily. I don't have a judge sitting in my backyard watching them hunt, but I'm CONSTANTLY watching my dogs and HONESTLY evaluating their skills. As I mentioned once before, my backyard is a graveyard for woodland creatures silly enough to cross paths with my dogs. (Or rather, more accurately- my bitch). Tai is not as good a hunter as Kimi. Not quite as agile. Not quite as quick. He also has a softer temperament. Of the two of my dogs, which do you think is the altered pet- the one who will never reproduce?

Tai.

I am honest in that I know that he is neither conformationally, nor temperamentally an ideal Shiba. Nevermind that his dam was a ROM dam, who was the daughter of the most influential ROM dam in breed history. Or that his father was the #1 Shiba in the country for 1999-2000. That his great-grandfather is on the cover of the book titled 'THE TOTAL SHIBA,' and is a NIPPO grand champion. You are mistaken in thinking that we care ONLY for great pedigrees. Once again- the pedigree means jack if the dog isn't a well-rounded great example of the breed. I won't breed Tai simply because what's behind him is FABULOUS. He needs to be fabulous too.

And he is- but he's a fabulous pet. And there's nothing wrong with that.

What all of this really goes back to saying is that the BREEDERS are the ones who must take FULL responsibility for the direction of their breed. EXCELLENT breeders will do everything in their power to prove their animals are more than just good looking. You're a simpleton at best if you think that a conformation championship ALONE proves worth. I don't think that- and I never said I did. I don't think conformation alone is an accurate depiction of a well-rounded animal. So it is MY job to find other ways of testing my animals IN ADDITION to showing them.
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  #42  
Old 09-08-2006, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boemy View Post
Okay, I'm back for a bit.
A backyard breeder is like someone who watches Star Trek and likes it. A good breeder is like someone who has watched all the Star Trek episodes in every series, goes to conventions, and can quote Star Trek trivia. A GREAT breeder is like the fan who attends conventions, can draw the plans of the Enterprise by memory, goes to the first-night screening of every Star Trek movie dressed in a Starfleet Academy uniform, and speaks fluent Klingon.
Great analogy I love it!
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  #43  
Old 09-08-2006, 08:05 PM
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rdmize - Basically it sounds like you could care less if you purchase from a BYB or not. You don't care about lineage/pedigree or what the dog looks like compared to standards. Do you care about the temperament or it's ability to work or obey commands? What exactly DO you care about (besides health) when you purchase a puppy?

I sincerely hope you do not plan on becoming a breeder. Apparently your dogs would be from a healthy mom/dad (what about grandparents?) but they wouldn't meet *or exceed* the breeds standards in anything else. That seems pointless to me. Why breed an animal for a pet when you can (and are supposed) to breed for health, temperament, conformation, etc.?

JMO
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  #44  
Old 09-08-2006, 08:10 PM
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Im not sure how to write this...but Im goin to give it a try and hope it makes sense.

There are always going to be litters of puppies who are what the OP wants. Cute, not show or up to standard, mixes, etc. These dogs will always be around...and more then likely make wonderful pets, so dont worry...the world will not turn into purebred mayhem

BUT the people who are breeding should breed to better the dog, not just make puppies. Anyone can and will get a bitch pregnant...it should not be called breeding IMO.

I dont know if this is what I wanted to say or not. Does this make sense? We're always gonna have mixed breed not showable dogs....so why worry about the demise of mutts?
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  #45  
Old 09-08-2006, 08:32 PM
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I did not breed for money ... nor cuteness ... nor for " fun " . I bred because of my dog's lines and with my mentor's urging to continue " our lines " . He showed and judged Goldens... My first female to breed was out of his female " Molly " who was in the Golden's Hall of fame .... I never showed seriously ( though he showed my puppy once ... 1st place ) All were " standard " and all with health clearances . It would take me many $$$$ to buy the quality I had back in the '60s .....If I decided to start again.... I WOULD be a BYB !!! My lines are gone ...my followers are gone .
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  #46  
Old 09-08-2006, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
I'm confused with this one- didn't I already point out that none of us believe this in the first place? What we do believe is that there should be a legitimate purpose behind breeding besides just "cuteness," or "I want a puppy."
Yep you did. I was just restating for RD

Quote:
You don't care about lineage/pedigree or what the dog looks like compared to standards.
Nope sure don't. This statement I think it gets to what bothers me most about this whole thing. It appears you do not even consider any connection to a dog other then for showing at a ring. I think this is a disconnect that will be hard to over come. You see it as very important for a dog to look a specific way, the standard ( almost put in the almighty part be I'm staying away from the humor now). You think a dog is lesser if he doesn't meet these standards. You can't understand why I don't feel this way and I can't understand why you do. It feels very shallow to me to put so much on appearance. Do you have kids? Any of them not meet the correct standard look for their ethnicity?
as far as the lineage part, even to a show breeder I don't see how this would make any difference other then potential. If you want a great pedigree just so you can say your dog has a great pedigree, maybe put it on the wall. Well that is completely superficial.

Quote:
Do you care about the temperament or it's ability to work or obey commands?
yep sure do my OP was some what of a defense of this, did you read it?

Quote:
If everyone breeds even ONE litter from every cute dog out there, the pet overpopulation problem--which already kills thousands of cute dogs every year--will explode.
And if all show homes stopped breeding a lot less cute puppies would die also. I'm not recommending this just using it as an exadrated example as was your statement.

Are there any breeds that where developed for a look to begin with? If so they ARE being breed for cuteness, just someone wrote it down in a standard. If I write one down
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  #47  
Old 09-08-2006, 11:32 PM
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-sigh-
there is no point guys,

all rdmize wants to do is argue with everything we say...just like every other debate on chaz

Wasting our time with this serves no point
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  #48  
Old 09-08-2006, 11:47 PM
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I agree... I don't think rdmiz understands or gets the point .
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  #49  
Old 09-09-2006, 12:15 AM
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hmmmm, Maybe I am completly lost here but I think I have concided many points and said I was mistaken many times. Must I agree with everything? Debates like this do end up going no where for the most part but some times if people are willing to open up thire minds a bit and look at things from a new point of view a new understanding can be obtained. I try to make an effort to look at things in new ways I may not do a good job of it but I do try. that being said this thing propably has run it's course.

Iheart,
Ahh ha, by your statment you have traped me. By this very post arguing your point I have made your point! Check Mate... you win for now but next time... next time...


Good luck to you all
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  #50  
Old 09-09-2006, 12:40 AM
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ummmmm...ok?
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