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  #31  
Old 09-08-2006, 07:23 AM
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dogs do get tested for instinct,

for instance, with shelties they can take the herding instinct test.

also any good breeder wont just title his dogs in conformation, they will title them in maybe agility, obediance, flyball, S&R, tracking, retrieving, etc
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  #32  
Old 09-08-2006, 08:19 AM
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I don't think breeding dogs with brown spots in the right place, and disregarding those with a squiffy spot is bettering the breed.

Which, be HONEST, is was happens.

Most people breed to satisfy them SELVES.

If they looked about, they would realise that yes, the world is packed to capacity with dogs, and do we REALLY need one more golden/dobie/chi/puli... etc breeder?
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  #33  
Old 09-08-2006, 08:45 AM
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What the OP doesn't realise is the cumulative effect of breeding inferor dogs. You dog may be fine with no health problems, but if you continue down Fifis line with careless breeding problems will eventually crop up. This is not hear say, it is fact.
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  #34  
Old 09-08-2006, 09:14 AM
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Frankly, some show breeders do undoubtedly show dogs for the glory. It's inevitable, humans like to be in the winner's circle. Did anyone else see that there isn't a Tennessee Walking Horse grand champion this year because SEVEN of the ten finalists were disqualified for abusing their animals so they'd step higher? (It's called soring.) And all for ribbons. I don't think show dogs in general are abused like the TWHs are, but I also wouldn't be surprised in the least if some breeders wouldn't hesitate to breed a "conformation perfect" collie with no herding instincts. In fact, this is why there are "show lines" and "field lines" for some dogs, particularly hunting dogs. They look radically different and the field dog could never win in a dog show, despite being a better working example of the breed.

But that doesn't mean conformation should be disregarded . . . More on this later, I have to run for the bus!
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  #35  
Old 09-08-2006, 10:01 AM
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^^ Good point. But field lines are being proven as well, they are also health tested before breeding.
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  #36  
Old 09-08-2006, 10:10 AM
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How is ending up with a useless, yet pretty dog, bettering any breed?

(useless as in couldn't do what it was ORIGINALLY bred for?)..

Surely bettering the breed would be IMPROVING it's ORIGINAL purpose? What have LOOKS got to do with that?
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  #37  
Old 09-08-2006, 11:32 AM
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Why are people so stuck on only breeding pretty dogs? Yes, some people do this and I find it ridiculous, but often times dogs bred with good conformation in mind are also bred to serve a purpose. Take a look at the Doberman, for example. I love how versatile this breed is. Well-bred Dobes should be able to go from the show ring to the schutzhund ring on a moment's notice. Most, despite being show dogs, can be working dogs as well.

Some show breeders have really messed up breeds. In Border Collies it's difficult to find a show-bred dog that is naturally as good at herding as a working-bred dog, due to the extremely selective breeding done in Australia - Australian breeders wanted to eliminate smooth coats, prick ears, colors like sable and red merle, predominately black dogs and predominately white dogs. With SO much focus placed on appearance (and really, that was IT) the working ability of the dogs decreased significantly. Working drive and instinct is not something that can be "fixed" into a line and therefore it does require a lot of attention and preservation. As is evident with the Border Collie, if working ability is ignored, it'll diminish.

That being said, Dizzy you have a good point but my personal opinion is that, with the breeding of "working" breeds, this is WAY beyond the proper placement of spots. So much attention is given to the standard because the standard illustrates HOW the ideal working dog should be built. It's for efficiency, not style. A Jack Russell with a very short back and a fragile body will not be able to do his job as well as a JRT that is built correctly. Period.

As Tempura mentioned in an earlier post, breed clubs agonize over the breed standard. You get the condensed version on AKC's site, but there is SO much to the standard and when you read through why certain things are "called for", it makes perfect sense.

Some breeds ARE all about looks. What purpose does a Papillon serve? most of the toy breeds are defined by how they look, not what they do. Do you disagree with breeding small companion dogs for appearance as well?

With working breeds, it isn't about LOOKS as much as FUNCTION. A dog that meets the standard (and I mean the standard, not show-ring fads like the over angulated GSDs or 100lb Labs) will function better as a working dog than a dog that is a structural wreck.

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  #38  
Old 09-08-2006, 11:39 AM
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Okay, I'm back for a bit. I wrote this without reading any additional posts after my last post, so this isn't reply to anyone in particular, in case anyone was wondering.

The show / field divisions highlight what I think of as "good breeders vs. best breeders."

Good breeders health check all their dogs, take deposits on puppies before having a litter to make sure every pup goes to a good home, socializes the puppies, carefully screens the potential puppy homes, offers a health guarantee, and will take back any of their dogs who needs to be rehomed. They are good people who care about their dogs and they certainly aren't making any money on them.

The best breeders do all that AND strive to keep the temperament and abilities the breed was developed for. The best breeders will do their best to maintain whatever working ability the dog has, by participating in field trials or other sports like advanced obedience or agility, which prove the dog's physical abilities and intelligence.


Just because some show dogs aren't the best at their original purpose--like the pomeranian, which was originally a 30 lb spitz breed--is not to say the breed standards should be ignored or that it's okay to breed a dog who is "so cute" but doesn't fit the standard . . . unless you're breeding a dog for a specific working purpose (like a hunting dog or herding dog.) But for pets, the breed standards should be adhered to.

Almost EVERY dog is cute or handsome. And if one person has the right to breed a dog simply because "Awww, cute" or "she was so special to me", why wouldn't everyone with a cute, well-loved dog have that right? Just because it's YOUR dog who's cute doesn't make it a special case. If everyone breeds even ONE litter from every cute dog out there, the pet overpoplation problem--which already kills thousands of cute dogs every year--will explode.


The breed standards are important. Because, quite they separate the wheat from the chaff. No, the chaff isn't the dogs. It's the breeders.

The best breeders are passionate, knowledgable, and dedicated to their breed. Their puppies will not end up abandoned or in shelters because a) they will be sought after by other breed fanciers and b) the breeder will take back the dog at any point in its life if the owner can't care for it any longer. A great breeder takes the time to buy and show a quality bitch to begin with and any dogs they have who don't fit the show standards are probably spayed/neutered rescues. If the only dog a breeder has is Jill Average, what does that say about his dedication to the breed? That's not to say that unshowable dogs are less "worthy" as pets or less loving . . . but if someone plans to be a good breeder, wouldn't they get the most showable dog possible to begin with?

A backyard breeder is like someone who watches Star Trek and likes it. A good breeder is like someone who has watched all the Star Trek episodes in every series, goes to conventions, and can quote Star Trek trivia. A GREAT breeder is like the fan who attends conventions, can draw the plans of the Enterprise by memory, goes to the first-night screening of every Star Trek movie dressed in a Starfleet Academy uniform, and speaks fluent Klingon.
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  #39  
Old 09-08-2006, 01:13 PM
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tempura said about how looks help with the dogs orginal purpose,

also GOOD breeders, dont just do conformation
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  #40  
Old 09-08-2006, 01:35 PM
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I'm fairly new here, and haven't posted a lot. But this really gets to me. There are limitless numbers of "pet quality" dogs on petfinder. Why add to them? Cause your dog is cute? Well, my pup Zuki was almost pts at 5 weeks, in a kill shelter, before I got him. And he is darn cute. Just breaks my heart. Too many pups, not enough homes. JMO.
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