Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > The Breeding Ground


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 09-08-2006, 03:35 AM
rdmize111's Avatar
rdmize111 rdmize111 is offline
Active Pup
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 18
Default

almost forgot... these BYB do just happen to eat babies. Some kinda ritual thing, they breed yorkies to Masstiffs, eat babies then hit the sack after opening the front gate most nights..
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-08-2006, 05:19 AM
tempura tantrum's Avatar
tempura tantrum tempura tantrum is offline
Shiba Inu Slave
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: pacific northwest
Posts: 768
Default

No dogs should be "bread." That would imply that they are grain-based food products suitable for putting in the toaster.

Some dogs should be "bred," however.

As far as the book goes, I doubted you'd take a second look at it- but perhaps there's SOMEONE out there seeking a little bit more knowledge who WILL, and that's where my true intent lies. It's a fabulous book- and the more prospective breeders that read it, the better. People can learn alot from their predecessors, AND from reading (both are highly underrated these days).

And as far as standards go...it was generally assumed that the people reading them would have a modicum of intelligence and the ability to reason. It was also generally assumed that people would have a THOROUGH understanding of the roots and function of their own breed.

These days, unfortunately that's a foolish assumption. Joe Average down the street looks at a standard once, says "Ooh Lucy TOTALLY looks like that," and decides that she's fit to be a mother. (Lucy probably totally DOESN'T look like that...which is why we like to have *several* judges evaluate our dogs).

And I"m curious as to WHERE you read the standard from? Was a few short paragraphs? If so, I'll just remind you that the one's sent for AKC/CKC/UKC approval are often very succinct, concise descriptions of what a judge should be looking for in the ring. The ACTUAL full-length standards that are slaved over by breed clubs are in-depth enough to make your head spin. They generally are filled with illustrations as well. I would ask you to read the in-depth one for Shibas or ACDs (absolutely BRILLIANT), but I can already see where asking you to read something is going...

Point is- if you're worth your salt as a BREEDER you will KNOW the in-depth version. You will KNOW your breed's history. It's correct temperament.

We do our best job to present this to judges- but when you've got roughly 2 minutes per dog, that can be really tough. Which is why it's SO important for the BREEDERS to be held accountable for doing the right thing.

Why settle for mediocrity? Just because you think it's your RIGHT to do so? It seems to me this is the rationale I see the MOST. And it's laughable.

I've already been over the fact that I believe a dog worth breeding has MORE than just great looks. Stop looking at the standards and look at the BREEDERS. They'll show you whether or not a breed is moving in the right direction. After all, they're the ones bringing the standards to LIFE.

Gah...22 years old and I swear these boards make me feel like I'm 95 some days.

BTW- keep the rudeness out of your tone and you'll recieve kindness in turn. Stay on topic. I don't like to debate with people that have the emotional maturity of blueberry muffins. (IE: the BYBs eating babies thing...please give it a rest, it wasn't funny the first time, and the second time I didn't have a clue what its relevance to the argument was).

And as far as the word "Scum" underneath RDs name, it's been there far before you have. Chillax.
__________________
Kan-i, Ryosei, Soboku


Last edited by tempura tantrum; 09-08-2006 at 05:30 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-08-2006, 05:50 AM
rdmize111's Avatar
rdmize111 rdmize111 is offline
Active Pup
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 18
Default

ohh well guess that is the end of that. thought we were having a good discussion but it seems you are just getting bent out of shape. You are right obvisly I can't read and as far as the bread- bred thing if you were making a joke could have been funny but I know you have no time for joking! Shame on me for making one.Trying to make a point out of a grammer error is much like saying well you are a dummy face. I read the standard from the AKC site. As far as the RD scum thing, as I said I have not been to this board much. How do you think it would look to me? I did find your 1st post informative thanks for that but looks like now we are just down to insults. I'll not spell check this one, that way you can realy show me!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-08-2006, 05:55 AM
tempura tantrum's Avatar
tempura tantrum tempura tantrum is offline
Shiba Inu Slave
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: pacific northwest
Posts: 768
Default

Quote:
"almighty standard", Looks like this part really torked you off. I looked at the standard for the Bullmastiff (this is the only one I looked at) and I think anyone would agree (bet I'll find out "any one" doesn't) that it is more about appearance then not. Show breeders are breeding for the "total show" package. You'll not convince me other wise until I see some behavioral, intelligence, endurance testing. Something other then look at me and feel me. If this stuff is going on back stage please enlighten me.
As is often the case, people are very quick to judge things they have absolutely no understanding of.

So I guess yeah, in your case "this stuff is going on backstage." I'll gladly enlighten you.

I cannot speak for all, but I CAN speak for my own dogs lines. I'll give you a run through of the Shiba standard- and tell you WHY looks matter in these guys.

My dogs come from nearly 6000 years of instinctual breeding to kill things. Specifically, bear and wild boar.

When breeding relatively small animals for the express purpose of hunting and destroying things MANY times their size (a wild boar is no laughing matter, and I'm sure you'll agree with me, neither is a bear), you've got to breed an animal that is not only lightning fast and agile, but more often than not, smarter than you.

A Shiba should be relatively small as a larger dog would make a larger target. They should also be able to move through dense brush and scrub- a task that would be much more difficult if they were as large as an Akita.

Good. Size taken care of.

This is a Nordic breed used to dealing with harsh, cold winters. Thus we want a soft, dense undercoat, and a harsher topcoat. When it rains or snows, the skin stays dry and warm- water slicks right off that top layer of guard hairs. Dogs with open coats are dead dogs. Water goes straight to the skin, the dog loses body heat (and being dead, makes a very ineffective hunter). Color-wise red, red sesame, and black and tan, mimic the environments Shibas track their quarry in- all the harder for prey to spot them. White "urajiro" (roughly translated- ventral surface white), allows the hunter to see "flashes" of the dog's tails, and thus be able to keep track of them when running behind them. (And if you've got Shibas, you're ALWAYS running behind them).

Coat and color done.

Feet- very important. The standard calls for "tight little cat feet." These are springy, rounded paws that are most effective for the forest terrain Shibas hunt in. A hare foot (like you see in sight hounds) would be VERY effective on sand (it acts as a "snowshoe") but absolute murder in a forest filled with rocks and twigs. Imagine all these sharp things sticking between paw pads. Ouch! That would slow down progress.

We're very picky about tails. Shiba tails act as "rudders." If you ever watch one chasing something, or running an agility course, you'll see that they unfurl it when dashing from side to side, or making quick turns. A tail that is too short CAN'T do this. And quick turns are IMPERATIVE in an animal that may get gored.

Finally- temperament. If you think we don't worry about it...boy are you dead wrong! Shibas should be aloof. They're cat-like. They do their own thing. They are the disobedience champions of the world. And we LIKE that. Why? Because a dog that takes orders from the schmuck standing safely 20 feet away from the action is a dog that gets killed by a boar or a bear. They are bred to think FOR THEMSELVES.

They don't say all of this in the standard that's sent to AKC.

So how do I know it?

I STUDIED. I hit the books when I was 13. And I KNOW my breed because when I decide to take full responsibility for a litter it is my BUSINESS to know it.

And do my dogs have working ability?

Both Tai and Kimi have dogs in their 2nd or 3rd generations that are succesful boar hunters in Japan. I'm a division one college cross country runner- and my little Kimi can keep up with me for 10 miles or more. My backyard is a graveyard for animals who didn't believe she had working ability. She's taken birds out of the *air.*

And the first time she saw a boar pig? 6 months of age and she went ballistic.

ETA: as far as my previous snarkiness goes, I'll beg your apology. My twin sister is an English major, and it's one of those things that I have a hard time letting go. You were right- it was rude of me. Sometimes the fact that I'm 22 DOES take over- and this often happens when I think people are saying things just to rile me up. My name isn't "Tempura Tantrum" for no reason.
__________________
Kan-i, Ryosei, Soboku


Last edited by tempura tantrum; 09-08-2006 at 06:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-08-2006, 06:15 AM
rdmize111's Avatar
rdmize111 rdmize111 is offline
Active Pup
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 18
Default

So let me state I do see what you are saying about how appearance and build relate to what dogs were original breed for but this don't mean the winner of the dog show would have been the best bear hunter. So let me ask you this. Is there any way that they test behavioral traits? like the lack of obedience? I understand you breed for the correct mind set but can the judges judge for it?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 09-08-2006, 06:31 AM
rdmize111's Avatar
rdmize111 rdmize111 is offline
Active Pup
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 18
Default

heh, so reading my last post, I think I'm getting a bit off topic or a least away from what I was trying to get across. If I realy want to know about breeding show dogs that indepth I should go buy a book. So I am curious but not need to run a class here for me if you are not inclined to do so.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-08-2006, 06:54 AM
RD's Avatar
RD RD is offline
Are you dead yet?
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 15,487
Default

What were you trying to get across? That you support irresponsible breeding? I'm not trying to be rude (I know it sounds that way; I don't particularly have a way with words) It just seemed to me that you were protesting the breeding of "show dogs" and insinuating that they can do nothing more than prance around a ring. Tempura was simply explaining otherwise.

I'm not sure how Shibas are tested for their temperament, but with Border Collies, the true test of a dog is how it works. If a dog has the finesse to work the most skittish sheep without startling them, has the nerve to stand up to an angry ram and prevail, has the brains to learn and flawlessly obey dozens of commands, and has the guts and focus to control a flock even with the handler miles away, it is what a Border Collie should be. That's slightly off topic, though.

I don't think a judge can always accurately "judge" a dog's temperament upon meeting it in the show ring. This is why there are temperament tests, that specifically deal with the characteristics of the individual breed.

If you feel like reading, there is a lot of information on temperament testing on this site: http://www.atts.org/

btw, the word "Scum" beneath my name is just a joke. It's not meant to get people all riled up.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-08-2006, 07:14 AM
rdmize111's Avatar
rdmize111 rdmize111 is offline
Active Pup
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 18
Default

The point I started out trying to make is that a dog dose not have to be a Show dog to be bred. I'll go back and reread my 1st post in a sec, but I think that is what came across. After reading replies to my post and turning things over in my head I still pretty much stand by this. I have however learned some things about show dogs as a side benefit. I think you RD, by definition would call breeding for one pet irresponsible breeding and so by your definition yes. The condition being that the "irresponsible" breeding be done responsibly. So it would have to be done with all proper health checks, home placement spay/neuter contracts and all the stuff I keep trying to avoid listing because as I said I don't know it all. My mistake with the scum thing.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-08-2006, 07:42 AM
Ashlea's Avatar
Ashlea Ashlea is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: South Africa
Posts: 962
Default

There are pet quality pups in every litter. Why breed specifically for pets from less than excellent parents. Surely if you want a pet you want one with great bloodlines, health testing and parents and grandparents that have proved themselves to be exceptional examples of the breed.

I know, I own a VERY badly bred Papillon. She has luxating patella, I watch her knowing that she is going to be in allot of pain when she is older and will need surgery. He knees are causing no problems now, but they will later and I am already saving for the expensive surgery to come. She has asthma, allergies and a temprement that borders on snippy with strangers. Do I love her, more than life, would I breed her, NO WAY!

Even if your pet does not have these problems, repeated breeding of less than perfect, proven animals will eventually cause these problems to arrise.
By only breeding the best, ie show and working dogs, we are trying to eliminate heriditary problems.

That is why only the best are bred. And showing is one way to see if your dog is up to standard. Once various judges have seen your dog and agreed, you then do health testing. Only when your dog has passed the health tests should it be bred. I can guarantee that a responsible breeder will not breed a dog with a bad temprement even if it had perfect conformation and passed all the testing.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-08-2006, 08:02 AM
rdmize111's Avatar
rdmize111 rdmize111 is offline
Active Pup
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 18
Default

Ashlea
I can tell you great bloodlines is not going to matter to a lot of people just for the fact of the bloodlines. With the dog I have now and my previous dog it doesn't matter to me one bit if anyone thinks they are exceptional examples of the breed, it's my dog and I like her better then who ever is the Champ. in her class regardless. My old dog was lazy and I had no clue of her blood lines, new dog has a Champ mommy and daddy and cost a lot. Is my new puppy better? To you yes, to me no. Just because a dog is not cosmetically up to par dose not mean health issues or even being dumb. If the dog has all the testing that a show dogs has they are going to have about the same risk of health problems I would think. The exception to this being pervious generations issues as in granny has hip problems mom didn't but I do.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:44 PM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site