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  #11  
Old 09-07-2006, 10:25 AM
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Tempura, again, everything I could have wanted to say, you said much more succinctly!
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  #12  
Old 09-07-2006, 12:11 PM
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Tempura hit the nail on the head.

Couldn't of said it better!
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  #13  
Old 09-07-2006, 08:56 PM
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Tempura
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  #14  
Old 09-07-2006, 09:19 PM
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This is one of those cases where you've taken a far too simple look at why we tell people not to breed dogs.

The real reason we seem so adamant is because most people are poorly equipped to do a good job.

1) I'm in the show world, and I don't know when I've EVER said "only show dogs should be bred." What an oversimplified statement. Please go look at a few more of my posts. Working and herding dogs, seeing eye dogs, drug-detection dogs, Karelian Bear dogs, Alaskan Huskies, etc. There are a LOT of reasons to breed GREAT dogs, and just one of them is conformation competition. However, conformation is NOT the be all end all, nor should it be. A well-rounded animal has titles on both ends of his name. You may see us list that dogs "need to be shown" because in most cases, it's the best way to get newbies to understand that there needs to be SOME kind of test of quality in their animals, other than "boy I think Princess is cute, and I want puppies just like her." We like to see that an unrelated, completely independent party sees some worth in the animal's breeding quality.


2) "Only purebreds should be bred." Have you read ANY of the threads regarding "Labradoodles" and like? Read a little closer. What we're REALLY against is people breeding mixes for STUPID reasons. "Cute" is a stupid reason. I am PRO Alaskan Husky (which is a fabulous working mixed breed that I've talked about again, and again and again and again and again...). My boyfriend's family in Australia has Kelpie mixes working on their cattle station- these dogs are brilliant, and are fabulous at what they do. Why would I mess with a good thing?

What I (and I think I can speak for many of the Chazzers here) really take issue with is that most designer dog breeders are breeding animals under completely false pretenses. They make claims the animals have hybrid vigor. Well I hope not...because hybrid vigor only exists in crosses between SPECIES, and since Labs and Poodles are both breeds of DOG (which I'm HOPING they know are the same species...otherwise they've got even more problems than I could've imagined), this is complete tripe. The "vigor" they're talking about occurs in Pariah dogs- which are animals left to breed completely indiscriminately for 7 or so generations with totally unrelated dogs. You won't look at such animals and have a CLUE what kind of dog they are. Furthermore, a lot of DD breeders aren't doing OFA or CERF, they aren't testing for genetic diseases common in their breed (a lot of them don't even know they exist), they aren't testing for STDs (yes- dogs get them, and brucellosis causes sterility or worse)...the list goes on.

There's SO much more to breeding than picking two dogs you like.

"Only PMs make money." Where'd you hear us say this? NO. ANYONE can make money breeding dogs- but generally it DOES mean they're cutting corners. I know TONS of BYBs that make money- and that's NOT a good thing. How many backyard breeders that you also know were getting their breeding stock tested with OFA and CERF? (Points to them if they even KNEW what these acronyms stood for). How many of them knew that dogs could get STDs? How many of them knew the genetic problems inherent in their breed? Were feeding a PREMIUM diet to their bitch (not the crap you buy in a grocery store)? Looked for a stud that made the BEST complement to their bitch, not the just the most AVAILABLE?

You see? Very easy to make money- simply charge an arm and a leg, complain that all the "show breeders" just don't like you because you're competition (trust me...you're not), and then fail to do anything right by the HEALTH of your dogs.

When it comes down to it- it's HEALTH that matters.

Read a few of the posts by people who unintentionally (or intentionally) became BYBs and you'll see it's not all hearts and roses. Genetic issues DO crop up- and a lot of them could've been avoided with careful research of pedigrees and evaluation of breeding stock. Special needs puppies have just as much right to live- but it's a hard life. How much better would it have been for said puppy to be born healthy?


Quote:
As with kids once people think they are being fed BS they will see it in everything you say.


Yeah....and about that...no we don't think BYBs eat their babies. We just think they're uneducated or misinformed. Decent people- sure. So keep it on topic and try not to get overheated...we DO actually know what we're talking about.


Quote:
you need to be trying to get something better but it dose no have to be based completely on looks


I don't know a SINGLE one of my friends in the show world who has looked at it this simply. How ridiculous. What a fabulous way to get animals with temperament problems. If you'd like to see a REAL example of people who breed only for looks and *gasp* DON'T breed to our "almighty standards" take a look at the people breeding over-sized Malamutes. It is no secret that one particular breeder in my area is responsible for breeding at least 2-3 animals who have attacked FAMILY members (one was a little girl who was killed), and SEVERAL more with aggression problems that have shown up in rescue.

Guess what- the "almighty standard" is there for a reason. And it hardly EVER is JUST about looks. Take a look at Pat Trotter's book "Born to Win, Breed to Succeed." It'll give you a better idea of what we do. When people breed JUST for looks, they also unintentionally breed for temperament problems that are genetically connected.

So we breed for the ENTIRE PACKAGE.

And breeding for a puppy JUST for yourself?

As long as you're willing to deal with it when the dam has FIFTEEN puppies...

Being a fabulous breeder is about being PREPARED- not about being selfish.
you tell it girl!!!!!!!!!!

AMEN
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  #15  
Old 09-07-2006, 09:23 PM
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good breeders breed towards a standard,

a standard is much more then how a dog should look, its all about temperament, instinct, character, expression, structure, movement, the dog as a whole, NOT just looks
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  #16  
Old 09-07-2006, 10:18 PM
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Nice Tempura! As usual!
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  #17  
Old 09-08-2006, 12:39 AM
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Tempura, brilliantly put, as usual.


Rdmize . . . Sounds like you're a little upset that dogs should meet a standard. Do you have a dog that you are considering breeding? Are you using this opinion to justify breeding a dog that is not of show quality? Please don't take offense if this isn't the case. I've simply noticed that a lot of people feel this way, and it makes sense to me because I felt this way when I was younger and wanted to breed my Papillon. Thank GAWD I have since learned better - he is a great pet but a HORRIBLE example of the breed, complete with poor health and weak temperament.

Breeding to better the breed is the sole reason that responsible breeders DO breed. Whether you are breeding for a better working dog or a better show dog. I personally feel that it's important to breed for improvement in both working ability, health AND conformation.

Breeding for any other reason will produce puppies of lesser quality. To breed continually with no goal in mind is going to do nothing but HARM the breed. You can breed for good pets, but there are millions of good pets in animal shelters all across the country. If you're going to breed, why not have a goal in mind? (ie: better show dogs, better protection dogs, better herding dogs, etc)

JMO.
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  #18  
Old 09-08-2006, 12:51 AM
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As usual, Tempura said it all.

~Tucker
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  #19  
Old 09-08-2006, 01:08 AM
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Hehe- wow guys! Thanks for all the kind words!
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  #20  
Old 09-08-2006, 02:03 AM
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Tempura,

1. Sounds good to me.. almost... I was mistaken about how you guys feel about working/service dogs. The princess is cute part I'll get to in a min.

2.Ok here also sounds like once again I was mistaken only pure breads should be bread", sounds like this is just not the over all view of people here and thank you for explaining the stance.

3.Maybe I got this view simply from the checklist I read (I think it is in a sticky) but I just want to point out that it may be better to convince people of the very real moral issues of breeding and not try to convince them they can't make $$. Soon they will find out they can and then everything you say goes out the window. This is just my view and if your not telling people they can't make $ then ignore it.

Ok on to the fun part,
Take a look at Pat Trotter's book "Born to Win, Breed to Succeed."
I just got to take a pass on this one due to the fact I'm not really into showing or breeding so I don't think it would be worth my time just for this debate.

"almighty standard", Looks like this part really torked you off. I looked at the standard for the Bullmastiff (this is the only one I looked at) and I think anyone would agree (bet I'll find out "any one" doesn't) that it is more about appearance then not. Show breeders are breeding for the "total show" package. You'll not convince me other wise until I see some behavioral, intelligence, endurance testing. Something other then look at me and feel me. If this stuff is going on back stage please enlighten me.

Now the the part you will all hate!!
I have come to the conclusion that breeding dogs for any reason in a given situation is ok as long as you are willing to take all the proper steps to ensure the well being of the pups. Including not breeding animals not of sound mind and body. I'm not going to list it all here due to one I don't know it all and 2 even if I did I'm sure I would leave stuff out but hopefully you guys can take health checks, home screenings etc.. and understand what I mean. So as long as you take every precaution to ensure the wellness of the pups/mommy/daddy I think it is ok. Please don't come back with what about 5yr guarantee, what about temperament, what about about dogs that have to come back... I'm saying IF ALL things are handled correctly.

Show dogs, working dogs higher etc.. have market value and there for make it possible to do everything correctly at no lose to the owner there for it is done this way more often but if some one is willing to drop 5K and all the time and effort into home screening and such and get only a puppy in return. Don't begrudge them that.

Lastly I see this as a binary situation. If ALL things are not handled correctly no matter the reason, show, work, cute, no reason is a good one.


RD, hmmm RD scum? nice. umm good point?

anyways I have no interest in breeding my puppy
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