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Old 08-30-2006, 05:01 PM
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Default Different views very interesting! Dog fights

I am a member of another forum for duck hunters and they have a section for gun dogs. I have read some very interesting threads there.
Whats even more interesting is how the views vary from forum to forum
If you have a minute check this thread out and let me know what you think!
http://www.refugeforums.com/refuge/s...d.php?t=464285
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Old 08-30-2006, 05:35 PM
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very interesting indeed. thanks for posting it.
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Old 08-30-2006, 06:06 PM
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Wow...it sounds like they're all having a terrible time. That's wild! Interesting though.
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Old 08-30-2006, 06:40 PM
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This is probably one of the more interesting things I've read in a while. Thanks for sharing!

Anyone want to start a discussion about it? Or at least clear up with NR, 49day and a couple of those other abbreviations mean?
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Old 08-30-2006, 07:12 PM
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I can tell you that stuwest is one of the most knowledgable people on the forum. I dont always agree with everything he posts but I sure have learned alot from him. Great guy!
Im not all together sure what all the abbreviations are but I will share the ones I do know that you will see
49th day is regarding a training method. Im not clear as to this particular method as I dont use Wolters training as a guide. I have combined many methods so that I have alot of ammo(knowledge of different ways) when I need it
WW is some type of club or test for pointing retrievers since none of my dogs point except for one I dont do the pointing tests.
FT is field trial

What I find interesting is the varied views most are the same thing just worded different, and how those views are so different from many I see here. Not good or bad in anyway. I find it intriguing and it makes me think.
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Old 08-30-2006, 07:21 PM
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I find it interesting because I deal with a 50+ dog pack every day that has constantly rotating members, though some that come almost every day of the week and have never had problems like they have occur in only groups of 6-8. Granted, everyone is speutered that is in daycare, so maybe that has something to do with it, but most of our fights occur over toys and are easily broken up with a squirt from the hose and some body blocking. Worst thing I had to deal with was a slighty crazy St. Bernard that sudden went DA one day.
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Old 08-30-2006, 07:28 PM
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What I really appreciated was this post...He has years and years of knowledge.
Quote:
I've kept 40 dogs for 25 years and air them in 6-8 dog groups twice a day, some single sex, some mixed sex. When training/hunting, we often run 8 dogs in a pack.

It's a nice idea to think that you are going to be able to control the dominance interaction of the dogs with training, but I haven't been able to do it. They just do it when I'm not looking. If they are going to fight, they will.

I will tolerate one non-lethal fight (more on that below), but if it is going to escalate or be repeated, the dogs are moved to different airing groups.

I started my education with Biology 101 classes with Dave Mech (OMG, that was '66...) studying videos of wolf pack behavior. What I decided, was that territoriality was genetically separable from hunting. (Otherwise, how would Brit temperament be combined with any sort of hunt??)

I started breeding the Beta dogs with high hunt together and confirmed it (to my biased eyes) The hunt was higher and the concern for territoriality was reduced.

After 10 generations of this, I have reduced the number/duration/intensity of fights ~50%, but they have not disappeared. A 'new' pack order appears, but at a lower, more managable level.

FWIW, I do agree with Hal, that the closer you get to wolf blood, the greater the chance that the fight will be fatal. We have 4 huskies and their pack hierarchy is RIGID in comparison to the labs. I will NOT mix them at any time.

I also see the females participating to a near equal level of the males. It's quicker and more often lethal. The males do a lot more sparring. It should go without saying that most fights occur when there is a heat female wafting pheromones.

The female fights come from alphas confronting beta/omegas about their 'unwanted' heat/pregnancies. All females are pulled from the general population after breeding. Just too dangerous.

The most lethal fights come from ganging, with usually two beta animals taking on an aging alpha, both males and females.

The fights are usually single gender, but I have seen some that mix genders.

If the fight is between two dogs, with no third party interference, I will most often let it take it's course, while I 'supervise'.

Regarding tools, I have tried almost everything to little avail, if it's a serious fight. The cattle prods, even the six battery ones kinda work. The pepper sprays (capisicum), even the double dose police ones have not made much of a dent in the serious encounters.

What I use now is Grandpa's simple "Fight Stick", which is a 1" x 2" x 18" pine slat, with it's edges/ends sanded round. This is used with it's FLAT side to slap flanks ONLY. I have used it, put crosswise in between the jaws of an attacking animal, if it backs off to regrip.

Using the 'sharp' edge will cause damage, so you have to be deliberate as you use it or you will cause damage. I don't allow visiting dogs here except under supervision, and would not allow one of the 'defense' breeds in, but have posited that if the dogs cornered a coyote, I could use the 'sharp' edge to dispatch the coyote.

But, in almost all of those cases, the coyote will have been dispatched by my field gun, or we would have been to pull the dogs off enuf for the coyote to escape. The coyote will take no deference, so make your decision early. If it is a wolf or a bear, you won't have enuf time to even think about it. Pick up the pieces after your eyes clear. Put bells on you dogs. They help a lot if the wolves aren't hungry.

Neutering/spaying drops the dog to the Omega position in it's group quickly, but I discourage it for my clients as I believe that hysterectomy/castration effect the physical development of the dog. I have a life-time health warranty on all my pups for properly maintained dogs, but no longer warrant dogs with a full pull. I continue to fully warrant tubal ligation and vasectomy (snips and clips). URL references on request ([email protected], no PMS, please)

BUT, then you get all the pack behavior back. Most of my clients (at least the wives) fold when confronted with a recalcitrant vet.
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Old 08-30-2006, 08:09 PM
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I liked that one as well. I don't know, I've just never had to deal with many intact dogs in a group setting (once they hit 6 months old anyway) and all the intact dogs at the park are all pretty laid back.

I know I had more to say, but I went to eat dinner and forgot.

EDIT: Now I remember...it was the part about the neutering/Omega status. I'm guessing this only holds true for a dog that is part of an otherwise all intact group? Or else do the heirarchies re-shift and all the Omegas then have a secondary status as "Alpha-Omega" "Beta-Omega" all the way back to "Omega-Omega", which are the most picked upon dogs on the planet. But I've also seen many a neutered dog "bristle up" for a fight with an intact dog.
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Old 08-30-2006, 08:16 PM
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Yes very interesting indeed. Almost sounds like a different language when reading their posts. Lol I belonged to a bird dog forum too, but havent posted in at least a year.... Just not enough time for two.

Oh, I thought the 49th thing means that pups go to homes at seven weeks or 49 days. Because the one guy was talking about the best dog he got at 12 weeks..... and there was no 49th rule... like in the states or something. Not sure though. If it doesn't mean that I am interested to what it is too.
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Old 08-30-2006, 08:44 PM
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So are we all "off" in recommending 8 weeks/60 days...should puppies be kept until 10+ weeks?
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