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  #21  
Old 08-28-2006, 11:59 PM
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I must've assumed that the two dogs you stitched up were not pits, because you didn't state that they were. Most times if pits are involved people like to mention the breed.

I do all of those things that you have mentioned other than crating and letting them off leash, of course on private property. We don't have dog parks here, and even if we did, I would not go there. I trust OTHER people's dogs much LESS than my own.

Hades is neutered, he's in his third set of obedience lessons, one set of privates and his second set of group ends this Thursday and I never, EVER leave my dogs outside unattended.

This is my issue doberkim, it seems as though you are so very quick to judge when you haven't even met my dogs. You especially seem to enjoy bringing me down about Roxy's issues with strangers, and you are persistent in mentioning what used to be dominance issues over the furniture. Even when it's not relevant to the topic on hand.

And you know what? I don't mind. Because I openly admit that it's my fault, even though my vet, as well as a behaviourlist has told me that is was a mix of genetics and environment that made Roxy out to be the dog that she is today. So because I know that it was mainly my fault, you constantly reminding me, really does not bother me.

But the fact that you know neither of my dogs, and not once have I ever posted anything about Hades that anyone could even distantly perceive as aggression, and the fact that you still choose to bring up previous issues is unbeknowst to me.

The facts are this: As a pit owner, I do everything required to be responsible according to the law and MORE.

Hades has never shown aggression towards Roxy or any dog or person.

To be totally honest I am disapointed that as a vet, you can't admit that it is possible for a pitbull to be "stable" as you like to say with other dogs. Even one that is owned and trained by me, the one at fault for the horrible ticking time bomb Roxy.

So bash away, but I know, that Hades is trustworthy when it comes to Roxy.

And even the thought of Hades ripping Roxy apart is absurd.

I tried to register with that forum and it would not allow me, a problem with verifying a code, but I did take a cruise around, and searched, "unattended/supervised dogs together" and nothing of relevance came up. If you find something I'd be glad for you to share it.

But every dog is different, not just pitbulls.

I can't believe that it is so hard for you, an experienced dog person, to state that a stable pitbull is impossible, that they are always a risk. Technically every dog is a risk isn't it?
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  #22  
Old 08-29-2006, 01:12 AM
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I am not wanting to get involved in the arguement but I would just like to say that I have an Amstaff, that lives with 2 chihuahuas, 4 pomeranians and 6 birds. He has never batted an eye at any of the other dogs or birds even when our male pomeranian tried to attack him. But not for one second would I leave him alone in the house with the other dogs. When we are gone he is crated in the living room and the other dogs are crated in the bedroom.

I have my 3 girls penned in an x pen together when we are not home. They have been living together for 4 years. One day I came home from work and found Fox (female pom) with a puncture mark in her cheek. Pomeranians are not even known to be terribly dog aggressive and it happened with them. Not ever did I think that one of the other girls would attack another one. It never crossed my mind as none of them have ever, EVER shown aggression to people, other animals or each other. It happened.

Point of the matter is, is that if dogs that have NEVER shown aggression and don't tend to be known for that trait can do that then it is VERY possible that a dog with that history can do it. Even if you don't think so.
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  #23  
Old 08-29-2006, 06:53 AM
doberkim doberkim is offline
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Roxy -
who has EVER stated that DOG AGGRESSION makes a dog not stable and that makes them a bad dog?
No one has ever said - oh, dog aggressive pit bulls should be euthanized, dog aggressive pit bulls are horrible dogs. Dog aggressive pit bulls are why dogs get banned.

Dog aggression is PART of the breed. It's a known factor. It's something responsible breeders and rescuers know about and deal with every day. It does NOT mean the dog is bad, that the dog is one that should be euthanized, that the dog cannot be a good dog and a wonderful pet.

It means the dog is dog aggressive. I've lived with dog aggressive dogs that were competition dogs, wonderful pets in multi-dog households, wonderful hiking partners, lovely pets, great out in public. That doesn't change that they were and ARE, dog aggressive.

My own male doberman will most likely be same-sex dog aggressive when he matures - as is KNOWN in the doberman breed. It's stated in the STANDARD that aggression towards another dog in the ring is NOT to be a behavior the dog is excused for! That doesn't mean he is a bad dog, that I should not let him play with other dogs (in fact his best friend is currently an intact male). It means that I am careful with him, it means I do not own another male dog, and it means I know when he fully matures, I will be that much more on guard.

it's called being responsible - knowing what your dog is bred for, what is in your dogs genes, and what is likely to happen. Apparently you are ok with admitting Roxy is dominant or whatever you want to call her problem today is, because of genetics - but Hades genetics is better than that? It has nothing to do with knowing anything about Hades in particular, and everything to do with being a responsible pit bull owner. And plain and simple - I know many of them. And they will support the statement - responsible pit bull owners will not leave their dogs loose unsupervised. Those that did, 99.99% of the time will come back to tell you about what miserable thing happened because of it.


No, I would never trust a pit bull loose with another dog unsupervised.

No, I would never trust a male doberman with another male doberman.

No, I would never trust many other breeds with same-sex issues to be loose with each other when unsupervised (including many terriers).

What is so hard to understand about that? Is it THAT difficult to understand that WHEN NO ONE IS AROUND, the dogs can and will do things that you cannot control?

I'd rather be proactive than pay the price later on. Simple as that - clearly so would many others.
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  #24  
Old 08-29-2006, 11:10 AM
weylyn weylyn is offline
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As the owner of three same-sex pit/pit mixes, I completely agree with Doberkim's post.
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  #25  
Old 08-29-2006, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxy's CD View Post
Although, from what I've read, and been told, it is a dominance issue. You state otherwise. So why then is there a certain age? The basis behind the dominance issues at a certain age, is horomone levels and the "puppy attitude wearing" off. Also a desire for a higher position in the pecking order all comes with age. Even this statement that my vet, trainers, behaviourlist and average joe's have mentioned to me is not always true.

You must think I'm a retard, and just got a pit, didn't think about the consequences, didn't think about socializing, didnt' think about training, and didn't think about evaluating Hades temperment at all. I just got him, his at my house, I don't socialize, I don't train, I don't observe behaviours.
i'd really like to read where you've read that it's a dominance issue. it's surely a maturity issue and it often comes as a part of a dog becoming socially mature, but maturity does not equal dominance.

i don't think you're a retard, and socializing and training are important indeed, but neither is going to prevent dog-aggression in a pit bull. they may limit it, they may temper it, but as it is hard-wired, you're not going to prevent it.

diane jessup talks a bit about temperament, genetics, and dog-aggression in the pit bull. she also advocates not leaving pit bulls alone together.

Quote:
Well, I guess I'm just gonna have to sit here and cross my fingers and hope nothing "flips his trigger". And I'll have to admit than, by your standards of course, I'm a horrible pit owner, because I claim to know my horrible, ticking time bomb pitbull.
i don't think you're a horrible owner, but i do think you're being stubbornly naive and foolish about this. i think you're taking unnecessary risks with your dogs, and i hope and pray that you will not come home to a disaster.

Quote:
So what you are saying than, quite simply. Is that every dog that was bred to do something, DOES IT.

EVERY retriever retrieves.
EVERY herder herds.
EVERY "guarder" guards.
EVERY pitbull is dog aggressive.

And if they don't, when they hit two years old they will, or three"ish".
you do realize of course, that part of what makes up "breed" is temperament. so while, obviously, not every dog created is a stellar example of breed and temperament and working ability, retrieving, herding, guarding, hunting, chasing, fighting are all intrinsic to those breeds.

i don't know a ton about other breeds- i don't know when those traits likely develop, whether they're there as pups or not- but i do know about the pit bull, and i do know that dog-aggression is often linked to social maturity.

Quote:
Whilst I do not agree with that at all, I still do respect that that's what pits were bred to do. But still, I'm not going to label my dog something that it is not. Just as many people who work in the field ditch dogs that just don't have it. Hades just doesn't have it. Is that not possible to you?
it's not something i'd be willing to bet my dogs' lives and well-being on, no. it seems to me that not only are you not willing to label hades as something he is not, you're also not willing to recognize him as something that he IS.

Quote:
Or every dog that was bred for something just does it?
of course not. but again, if a retriever suddenly decides to fetch a ball, it's not going to spell disaster the way it would if a pit bull one day chooses to fight.

Quote:
As you mentioned, ANY breed is capable of "turning" at a certain age. So why then don't you tell ANYONE with a multi-dog household that leaving dogs unattended alone is irresponsible?
i personally would never leave two capable dogs alone together. that's just my personal gut feeling. i'd rather be safe than sorry. but the majority of breeds WERE NOT BRED TO FIGHT. yes, they'll fight. all dogs are capable of fighing. most dogs do not have the compulsion, the physical ability, and the drive to finish it in a deadly way. pit bulls do.

you don't believe me, then fine. do what you will. but i'm not the only one saying it.

http://www.badrap.org/rescue/owning.cfm
http://www.badrap.org/rescue/multi_pits.cfm
http://www.realpitbull.com/ownership.html
http://www.pbrc.net/fightinfo.html
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/breedinfo.php
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  #26  
Old 08-29-2006, 05:20 PM
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First off, same-sex issues have nothing to do in my situation. I own a male and a femlae both s/n. Check

Second off, I am more than aware, and observe daily each of their temperments, because Hades is getting older, and I know it is very possible that his kind, sweet, in no way aggressive attitude can change anytime within the next two to three years, and I was the first to mention that in this thread. Check

I understand the generalistic standard of pitbulls. But that's exactly what it is, general. Not every pit, will have every trait listed on the breed standard. Many will, but not all.

Maybe my town is just small, but I've never heard of people separating their dogs same sex or not in homes. And in my town, that I've heard of, there have never been any problems. (it's a small town, and I speak to my vet regularly)

The points are this, I really understand what all of you are saying. I do. And I know your probably think I'm foolish, and turning a blind eye to the fact that I won a pitbull.

I've in no way just decided this for convenience. Hades has a crate. He uses it often. Most times when we're leaving for a few hours or undetermined amount of time. But for an hour or an hour and a half, he usually won't make messes anymore, and I do not feel at this time in his life, that he's going to rip Roxy apart.

I'm not stubborn, because at the first sign of a change in his personality, he will be crated. Right now, I just do not feel that it is neccessary.

Doberkim-Once again you haven't read my post. *sigh*. I stated that my vet and a behaviourlist stated that it was predominantly genetic, and the fact that my lifestyle when she was a puppy did not allow much time for socializing, I was working six days a week, night shift. And honestly, truthfully, it was before I even knew that I should've done it.

So as I've already stated, I'll quote, I don't feel like typing it again:

Quote:
Because I openly admit that it's my fault, even though my vet, as well as a behaviourlist has told me that is was a mix of genetics and environment that made Roxy out to be the dog that she is today. So because I know that it was mainly my fault, you constantly reminding me, really does not bother me.
Yes, mainly my fault. But as I've told you many times before, I spend more time, more money and more effort working on this problem than you could ever fathom.

Elegy- And what IS Hades? A pitbull? Yes is he is. As Roxy is a rottweiler, doberman. I know that he is a pitbull, and I know breed specific qualities of the pitbull, but I'm not going to label every breed standard on him. It will be in the back of my mind, so any of his behaviours that can be interpereted as a negative, I will imediately note.

I've thought about this, and I do understand now, why a retriever not retrieving is not really relavent.

With pitbulls, the breed specific quality we are speaking can do damage. So I do understand that.

But I've got more of a chance to win the lottery a few times, than tomorrow coming home to a dead Roxy. And that is NOW. I am watching for change, and have noticed none. If or when I do, I'll change how I handle my dogs to suit the situation.
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  #27  
Old 08-29-2006, 10:55 PM
doberkim doberkim is offline
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i think i speak for all of us when i say we give up. Roxy, we have shown you, and had people give personal experiences, of what responsible pit owners need to be aware of. we have given you links to some of the most prominent people within the breed and their recommendations - all which echo that pit bulls should never be left alone unsupervised with other animals - that dog aggression is intrinsic to the breed. That dogs that seem ok with other animals may one day still end up being aggressive. That the dogs should be kept away from other animals when not supervised.

That you should never.ever.ever. trust a pit bull not to fight.

I'm done, because I am tired of wasting my breath. There is no "change" to wait for - it may be something as stupid as one day while you are gone, something outside gets them riled up.Ask other people who had dogs that fought if they THOUGHT they would? The change isn't always gradual - until the day you come home to two seriously injured dogs. Our point is -WHY IS THAT RISK WORTH IT?
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  #28  
Old 08-29-2006, 11:11 PM
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Give up on what?

I'm sorry to say, and it's almost embarassing for me to say, but just because you're a vet, does not mean that you know my dog better than me, or those who are knowledgable dog people and have interacted with my dog. There is nothing you could say to make me change my mind about Hades NOW.

There was nothing to "give up on". It was clear from the very start, that I am firm in my belief, that Hades, now, with the lengths of time, amount of exercise before they are left alone and both of their temperments to me it is not a risk. I don't think in my head as I walk out the door, "Is this the day I'm going to come home to a dead dog?"

It's not as though Roxy and Hades have fought before, have drawn blood, have done anything other than rough play, or Roxy putting him in his place. Not once has Hades EVER challenged Roxy.

And always always always, when I return home it's the same: Roxy was in her bed sleeping. Hades is in his kennel anways, or busy with a toy entertaining himself. But that's besides the point.

I spoke with my trainer tonight about the issue, and not only does she not feel there is a need, but the other well known dog people in my dog classes, one is a breeder and the other competes, both scoffed at the mere mention of Hades "eating Roxy". And they HAVE MET, seen him interact, work and observed behaviours. Also, the lady in muskoka my trainer used to own a business with, has a pitbull, Reason, you may have seen his picture and article in a recent Dogs in Canada magazine, allows her pitbull to run free with 4 or 5 other dogs often.

I will be contacting breeders directly from the CKC and AKC websites to hear their opinion on the matter, and will ask permission to post what their answer is.

To be honest I don't know how hard it is to get into the "Dogs in Canada" magazine, but I would assume you would have to be rather well known and active in the pitbull community, as her article was regarding how she is no longer able to compete with her dogs due to the ban here in Ontario.

And if a reputable dog person, like this lady is, leaves her pitbulls alone, combined with my knowledge, about my own dog, I am more than comfortable with being happy with my decision, that has no relevance to convenience or because I'm hard headed.
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  #29  
Old 08-29-2006, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxy's CD View Post
But every dog is different, not just pitbulls.

I can't believe that it is so hard for you, an experienced dog person, to state that a stable pitbull is impossible, that they are always a risk. Technically every dog is a risk isn't it?
If a vet isn't on our side than who is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxy's CD View Post
Not every border collie is a herder, not every lab is a great retriever, just as every pitbull does not have that dog aggression that as you mentioned and is 100% true that they were bred for.


Why is it so hard to understand that the pitbull is a breed, and there are exceptions to them as well? Breed specific qualities play a huge role in a dog's personality, but how often have you heard of BC's that have no herding intuition? Or retrievers that don't like the water? OR dare I say pitbulls that have no dog on dog aggression?

I respect the pit's heritage, but I only use it where it applies clearly for my dog. I'm not going label him something that he isn't.
I have to agree with these statements here. Each dog is a individual within its breed. Some carry more of the intended temperments and traits some dont. There is no black and white to me there will always be a grey area.
Example. A lady we know who opted to buy a cheaper lab now has a dog who is not naturally birdy nor will naturally retreive. She is asking us to train her at 9 mo old. I have seen well bred show style labs who wont touch the water.
Theres always exceptions to the rule.
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  #30  
Old 08-29-2006, 11:56 PM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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To be totally honest I am disapointed that as a vet, you can't admit that it is possible for a pitbull to be "stable" as you like to say with other dogs.
Of course it's possible. I don't think anyone is saying it isn't. The issue isn't if your dog will ever have his trigger flipped or not. The issue is if you're willing to risk it and live with the consequenses if you're wrong.

I had a client once with three GSDs. Sweet, sweet dogs. Got along great and they we're left alone on a regular basis for over four years with no problem whatsoever. Then one day the owner calls me up in a panic from the vet's office saying that her female tore apart one of her males and should she have her PTS. (talk about pressure on me, what the heck so i say to that!)

I work with aggressive dogs all the time and I NEVER would have pegged these dogs to have one single fight. Never. They could have been the poster dogs for living in harmony. And yet this still happened. Shocked me and shocked the owner.

Will that happen to everyone who has multiple dogs? Nope. But it happened to her. And it could just as easily happen to anyone else. Heck, it could happen to me and my own dogs if I left them alone together and I have COLLIES. Odds are it won't happen. My dogs are sweet as pie around each other, not an aggressive bone in their bodies, and up till i had that client I always left them alone together. Never a problem. But after that incident I refuse to do so anymore. I'm not willing to face the consequenses if for some strange twist of fate my dogs flip out and tear each other a new one while I'm gone.

It's so much easier to just pop the puppy in his crate and put the other two in their 'own rooms' and I'll never have to wonder 'what if'.

It's like buying heartworm preventative if you live in a low activity zone. The odds of your dog getting heartworm are probably slim to none. But I'd buy the pills anyway just to be on the safe side.
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