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  #21  
Old 08-26-2006, 12:50 PM
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I guess it is personal, BUT as long as you are getting what you want achieved, without physical punishment or getting bit than I guess it doesn't matter does it?

You want to take your dogs bone, so you trade it for a treat.

I want my dogs bone, so I take it.

Both dogs lose the bone. And both of us have achieved our goal without getting bit, without physical punishment and without teaching the dog to "guard" or become possesive.

Roxy benefits all the time. In her daily routine, everything she can do in our home is beneficial. Play with me, cuddle with me, get fed, get attention, has toys, get's treats! The list is never ending!

So by losing the bone, she can benefit by playing with a toy, getting to cuddle, getting some training time (so getting some treats and some alone time with me)

There is no losing at my house unless you misbehave
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  #22  
Old 08-26-2006, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxy's CD
I guess I just can't understand actually worrying about my own dog biting me.
that's all well and good, but you're giving advice to somebody with a dog you don't know, and you have no idea whether or not that dog is willing to bite.

i guess i just don't feel the need to get confrontational with dogs.

*shrug*

i've never had a resource guarding problem with either of my dogs. i don't know if it's just not a part of their basic temperaments, if it's just that they respect me, or if it's because i've implemented the trade game and stressed the "give" command with tug games since i got them (both as adults).

but i've had other issues with my dogs, and i'd much rather work WITH them than set myself against them. it's just easier all the way around and much more pleasant for all of us.

edited to add: i don't trade for stuff if i need it now, for the most part, because i don't *need* to. even the wonderfully gross dead things luce finds in the yard.

it's already been established in the past that giving something up can bring something reallyreallyawesome, but that whole variable reward schedule and using the reward as a reward, not a bribe, means my dogs don't need to have a treat waved in front of their faces in order to give something up willingly.
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  #23  
Old 08-26-2006, 12:58 PM
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Well many people are giving advice to a dog they don't know.

(I know this probably isn't true) But what if the dog is aggressive/dominant all the time? What if it's fearful agressive all the time from being physically abused?

There are so many things, that could be wrong in the situation, and you don't know all the variables yet you gave advice, that perhaps with all the information could cause a problem.

Perhaps if the dog is beaten, physically punished, during the trade game the dog mistakes the moving hand that's offering a treat for a slap in the face?

There are so many variables and advice is just that. Ideas offered. And in my post where I offered that odd idea, I stated just that, it's weird and I knew that people would say things like that. It wasn't a suprise

I never fought, or set myself against my dogs while teaching them that when I reach for a bone you don't growl, because I guess I never really taught it. Even with what many people here say is a bomb waiting to go off a.k.a Roxy, she has not once growled at me for taking a bone. Ever. I never had to "correct" or even think about any other options. I took the bone. No problems with either Roxy or Hades. Perhaps because it was so easy, is why I have the outlook on the situation that I do. Who knows...
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  #24  
Old 08-26-2006, 03:42 PM
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I know Roxy. I've had dogs way back too, where I didn't know about the give and take concept. I just took bones from them too with no problems what so ever. But I do know that there are some dog who DO have a defensive attituded about their stuff. The original poster here happens to be one of them. Her dog is growling at her. So, in this context, it is best not to try to take a bone from a growling dog without conditioining him first....without starting practice with a lower valued item and working up gradually.

In fact....knowing what we know now, with more recent studies on how animals learn, it is probably best to condition any puppy to our taking things from them, just as a preventative measure, an extra safety thing. It prevents the possibility of the dog feeling like his stuff is threatened. It is nice that your dogs are fine about it. Some dogs will be. But there are plenty who are not. We see that right on these forums.

You're right that there can be other variables too, like a previously abused dog who mistakes your moving hand as a threat. That would probably be known and disclosed though. It would probably show up in areas other than trying to take away a toy or bone. So for all intents and purposes, in the context of this particular poster's dog, my opinion is to go about counter conditioining him slowly and showing him that taking his stuff is actually an OK thing, that he'll get something really good and will even get the item back...in the beginning. Then as his little brain gets this all solid, some of the giving back and wonderful reinforcments can be phased out, but not completely phased out every time. IMO.....just to keep him fresh....just like any skill.

My dogs that I have now may well have been fine without conditioning them. But I did it anyway. I think it's nicer. I'd much rather, if someone was going to mug me and take my purse, that they gave me $1000.00 in trade....much happier about it. LOL.
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  #25  
Old 08-26-2006, 03:46 PM
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Oh I'm not trying to argue with your Doberluv Just trying to figure out by reading my own post why I never had problems with a method that's now looked at as obselete. Especially, as mentioned, with the apparent "ticking bomb" Roxy! LOL

You often post great advice.

My "abusive" scenario was a bit more argumentative than serious. LOL

And I think conditioning from the get go is probably the best way to go! You most likely wouldn't experience grolwing/snarling at all with a puppy.
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  #26  
Old 08-26-2006, 03:54 PM
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Gosh! This thread is active. I went back to add a little blurb and you already posted. LOL.

How regularily, how many times a week, say, do you take a very high value bone away from Roxie when she's chewing on it.... and what do you do right after that with her?
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  #27  
Old 08-26-2006, 04:04 PM
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We'll say, two maybe three times a week, I'll take a bone from each of them. Either to save it for another day, or because it's old and I'm afraid they're going to choke on the small shards that come off.

They usually get about 30 minutes sometimes more sometimes a bit less of chewing time. It varies.

How it goes down? I walk up to her, and say, (don't make fun of me, my trainer says I talk too much to them like their humans but I don't care) "Roxy, times up! Don't wanna choke!/Let's put the bone away for tomorrow!".

And I just take it. Reach down and take it. She doesn't snarl, she doesn't even look upset. She just watches me take it and sometimes she'll follow me with a wagging tail, I'm sure hoping that she'll get it back, to the kitchen where I put it away. Once she realizes that the bone is gone for good, she buggers off to lie down, plays with Hades, get's a toy to play tug.

And that's it. It's never a big deal and never has been. It happens all the time, cuz I'm a big bitch! LMAO

But on a serious note, she's never done anything aggressive towards me, and as I mentioned, my nephew did take a bone from her a few times, because he wanted to play with her. And no big deal there either. Jacob said, "Come on Roxy gimmie your bone so we can play with the rope. That's a girl", took it and walked away. Well, and then played tug. LOL
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  #28  
Old 08-26-2006, 04:52 PM
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I think dogs come with different degrees of hardwired behavior. Some dogs are object guarders and some just aren't. The bottom line is, as very young pups, it's hard to say how one's dog is going to react later in life. And it's a good idea to condition them ahead of time so that when you have to take something away, they're glad...ecstatic to give it up because they always have gotten something even better in exchange. It's also a good idea to not completely stop practicing and trading some of the time. Like any behavior, this one can drift...or regress also. With an older dog already showing these signs of guarding, you have to go back to the beginning and use lower value items and teach the game...teach the dog that it is a wonderful and beneficial thing to give you the object.
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  #29  
Old 08-27-2006, 03:38 AM
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Roxy, i agree with you 100%. that's my bone/food/whatever, and i'll take it if i wish. i love my dog with all my heart, but he's not the boss and i will not allow him to dictate what i can and what i cannot have. as strict as that sounds, there's never any confrontation about it, he happily surrenders whatever it is that i'm taking.
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  #30  
Old 08-27-2006, 10:54 AM
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Remember, dogs evolved from wild animals. In the wild, the dogs who said ***8220;oh no, you go a head and take that last bone***8221; did not survive to produce off spring. In other words....Food is an issue over which sub-dominant dogs will argue with more dominant dogs. If, in the wild, dogs gave up their food to anyone (even higher ranking dogs) they'd soon starve to death, be unable to reproduce and the specie would become extinct.

If you forceably take things from your dog, you may create a resource guarder. It may not happen at first. It may not happen at all. And it may happen soon, as in the case of the OP's dog and many dogs. It is a pretty common trait because it is a hard wired, genetically dictated trait.

So, to say that you're the boss and that's why it's safe to take a resource foreably from your dog has no scientific merit. It may be working for you and your particular dog now, but it is not safe advice to give someone who's dog is already resource guarding, or safe to advise people with puppies. There are safer and better ways to condition a dog to this unnatural behavior of giving up high value food or objects based on the science of canine behavior.
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