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  #11  
Old 08-26-2006, 12:35 AM
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I guess I just can't understand actually worrying about my own dog biting me.

It's never been a thought in my mind, even when taking away things like fresh meaty bones or their favourite toy, or anything really...

I never traded my dog for the bone. It's my bone and if I want it I get it. I shouldn't have to trade you for anything! It's mine to begin with!
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  #12  
Old 08-26-2006, 01:16 AM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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I would make sure the dog is on a leash before you give him the bone. Then you can simply pick up the leash and walk away, the dog has to follow you, You now have better control over the dog. Ask for a sit, or down or whatever. THEN, whip out the treats and reward him for obeying you. He'll have to drop the bone to get the treat.

I don't trade with my dogs or any dog for that matter. I'd much rather reward them for doing something I ask, then to bargin with them for the bone. But that's just me, I'm sure trading works well for some folks.
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  #13  
Old 08-26-2006, 08:50 AM
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Doberluv's got good ideas for you to work on...but roxy, i see your point, if your dog has been NILIF trained, and my pup has, then everything in the house is already mine,and she knows it- so pulling it away would work.
Stop giving this dog anything unless he obeys a command, and then only for limited periods,and when you say so. Other than that, put all toys and bones away, to be given for good behavior.
For now, Tinks only reward for 'giving' some nasty thing up to me is a good pat down and a GOODGIRL! But if she showed aggression at a bone, that would be the last time she got one, till I reprogrammed her NILIF stuff back into her... When she first got a pig ear, she got ugly at ds, which meant no more pig ear except in my training situation till she understood that it wasn't really her pig ear, it was ours and we were letting her borrow it! Now the pig ear isn't an issue at all...thank goodness!
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  #14  
Old 08-26-2006, 09:19 AM
CamzKees CamzKees is offline
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You will get some good advice, but probably not all of it will agree. The point is that you should be able to do anything to your dog at any time, and that he/she should accept it with out growling, and with a cheerful heart.

Some people say that it's not dominant behavior, but I believe it is. I think that is your dog telling you, "You are not the boss of me! This is my bone, and I don't care what you want, you can't have it!"

IMO, that message is pretty clear. Here is an interesting article for you:

Is Your Dog Or Cat Possessive-Aggressive?
by Corey & Phyllis Cohen

Many people complain that their dog or cat guards his food or toys. We also hear complaints that their pet will guard their favorite sleeping or resting place as well. These problems can be serious if not addressed properly. Unfortunately, many people attempt the wrong approach to solving these problems. They often unintentionally perpetuate them as well.

When people get a new pet, especially a puppy, they often heed advice to show their pet that it's okay for them to approach his food bowl, or remove a toy from his mouth. They believe that every time the puppy is eating, it is a good thing to go over and take away the bowl for a moment, just to prove to the animal they can! They will attempt the same tactic with a toy, by approaching the puppy that is quietly chewing on his bone, and take the bone away. Of course, they always give the bone back, but the damage has already been done.

This approach will surely create possessiveness in the animal, as he becomes more and more fearful of someone taking away his stuff. Eventually, he hits his threshold, and fights back. Often he will only give you a warning growl, but often the dog will lash out with a bite. These bites can be very serious. This in turn causes the owner to either become frightened of the pet, or extremely angry. If they are afraid, the pet will sense this and feel as if he now has a way of gaining control of situations by acting aggressively. He will apply this strategy to other situations, because it was perceived to be effective. This evolves in to an aggressive, and sometimes dangerous pet.

If the owner becomes angry at the pet for growling or biting, then he may attempt to correct the animal. This makes the dog even more defensive, as he feels he needs to fight back to survive. The problem snowballs in the wrong direction. The dog or cat will begin to be afraid any time the owner approaches, and may act aggressively. This animal is often labeled a "fear-biter".

If you look at it from the animal's perspective, it is easy to see why this happens. Your dog is happily chewing his bone, or eating his food, and all of a sudden, for no reason, you come over and take it away. The first time this happens, it isn't a big deal, but after a few times, it becomes annoying. And after a few more times, it becomes an aggressive act toward the pet. You are doing to your pet the very thing you are trying to prevent him from doing.

Imagine that you are walking down the street, and someone grabs your handbag away. They immediately give it back and give you a compliment. A few moments later, or even the next day, they do it again. Day after day, this happens. Each day you grow more and more wary of people approaching you, and when you see the guy who keeps doing this to you, you grab on to your bag with all your might. There will certainly come a time where you will fight back, because you've decided that enough is enough! This is exactly how your dog or cat feels.

There is a better way to prevent and correct possessive aggression. It is best done preventively, but it is also quite effective as a corrective measure. Create a scenario where your pet actually loves when you take something away from them. He will invite you to come over and share their food bowl! He may even bring his possessions to you, rather than hiding from you in fear of losing them.

To begin, wait until your dog's feeding time. In his bowl, only put in half the amount of food he normally eats. The other half is either in your hand, or in a small bowl you'll hold on to. Put his food down and stand next to him. As he begins to eat, get his attention by calling his name, or making a strange sound. As he looks up at you, praise him, and offer him a small amount of food from your hand. Keep praising him as he eats this, and then let him go back to his own bowl. Repeat this process several times until you have no food left in your hand. Then let him finish his food. Repeat this process for one more feeding.

The next step is similar, but instead of standing next to him while he's eating, you'll walk up to him to put food in his bowl, and then walk away. Each time you feed him, you'll walk up to him. Do this for the next two or three feedings.

The next step is the same, except, put the food in his bowl, so he sees that you are adding food to his dish. Do this a few times during his feeding, and for three or four feedings. By this time, he should welcome you any time you come near his dish when he's eating. To maintain this, once or twice a week, while he's eating his usual portion of food, walk up to him and put a special treat in his bowl. You can even pick up his dish to add the treat.

A similar process is done for treating and preventing possessiveness of toys. Begin when your dog is happily chewing a bone, or playing with a toy. Stand next to him and begin praising him, so he feels no threat from you. Then, offer him one of his favorite treats from your hand. He'll have to drop the toy to get it, but make no attempt to pick it up. Repeat this a few times each session for a few days in a row.

The next step is to hold out your hand and ask your dog to "drop it", as you show him the treat. If he does, and eats the treat, immediately give him back his toy and praise him. If he won't let go, then gently take it out of his mouth, give him the treat, then the toy back, and praise him. Repeat a few times for a few days in a row.

To maintain this, once or twice a week, just go over to your dog when he's playing or chewing, offer him a treat for his toy, then give him the toy back with lots of praise.

This is all you need to do to get your dog to feel as if he benefits from you taking something out of his mouth, or going near his food. He will be eager to let objects go, because he is getting something in return. You will successfully increase his level of trust for you through these simple steps.

If your dog is possessive of locations, such as his favorite sofa, the same method will apply. Just approach him and offer him a treat the first few times. Then ask him to come off the sofa (or away from the location), for the treat. Maintain by doing this once or twice a week.

Many problems can be avoided by looking at it from your dog's perspective. Think of how he feels each time a certain event happens. Remember that the overall goal is to create and maintain a successful relationship with your dog, one that is based on trust and respect rather than deceit and intimidation.
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  #15  
Old 08-26-2006, 10:11 AM
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Doberluv Doberluv is offline
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Quote:
It's my bone and if I want it I get it. I shouldn't have to trade you for anything! It's mine to begin with!
LOL. That's your opinion or.... a human interjecting human values onto a dog. That's not the way the dog thinks. Dogs are animals and they have natural instincts hard wired into them. Possession is 9/10ths of the law, even in the wild. Even in the wolf studies I've been doing for my research, rarely does another wolf take food or a bone from another already in possession of it, not even an alpha. So, we humans are asking them to do something which is not natural. Some dogs don't mind and some dogs are more serious about their stuff. Some have been conditioned by us to become more defensive about their stuff because too many times something has been taken from them. It's the law of effect.

Some dogs are softer than others. To prevent a dog from feeling "ripped off," it's a good idea to do a little preventative measure. A lot of dogs are well mannered, obedient in every other way but have a problem with this. It really isn't about being a good leader or not.

When a dog is already developing this growling/possessiveness, conditioining is the only safe way to deal with it...teach the dog that it is a good thing to give you the thing in his possession, that he's not losing out.
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  #16  
Old 08-26-2006, 10:20 AM
CamzKees CamzKees is offline
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hey now, no need to be sarcastic, and then try to cover it up with a happy face or an LOL of whatever.

I'm not sure what you found so funny, but I'm glad you're amused.

If you don't agree with me, that's fine. I never have claimed to be a dog psychologist, and these are all opinions here.

If you believe you are more well informed then I (which you may very well be) you can post your opinion with out being condescending.
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  #17  
Old 08-26-2006, 10:27 AM
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This subeject has come up before, and I've admitted I'm a meanie abou this.

But you raise a question, , I thought that the "alpha" was in control of everything. Food, toys, love, attention etc.

I understand what your saying about in the wild... that does not happen. But let's say it did... I'm sure it must happen at sometime, when a lower ranking dog comes across something, perhaps even a bone, and the alpha strolls by and wants it. The lower ranking dog I imagine would cower, drop the bone and run would they not?

I just find it odd, that Roxy, who I know is a high defense fight dog, is more than fine for me, or my niece and nephew to take a bone from her. She has *never* growled or snarled!

Although you covered that, "Some dogs don't mind..." so I guess Roxy and Hades just don't mind and I'm lucky. (And I've posted that before too )

The way I think my dogs look at it: We got a new bone. We're chewing on it, it's great fun! Oh, mommy wants it. (They follow me while I put it away, or say "leave it".) Hmmm. I'm gonna go play with my duck.

The only guarding that goes on in my house, is between Roxy and Hades with toys and bones. I've never felt in the slightest that Roxy or Hades has "guarded" a bone. Roxy often wants you to hold it, or places it against your feet while she eats.

Camkeez- That's Red's outlook on the topic as well, I've heard it and while I understand the gist of it, I guess I'm just a big bitch! ROFL

Now that I think of it, I guess like Doberluv said, my guys have probably been conditioned into giving stuff up by now. BUT, I bet the reason I never feared to get bit when I first started taking stuff, was because they're such good dogs! ROFL HAHA
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  #18  
Old 08-26-2006, 10:27 AM
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Camkeez, you should read that quote. You didn't even write it. I did
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  #19  
Old 08-26-2006, 10:59 AM
CamzKees CamzKees is offline
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*grin*

I don't know, Orchid was never allowed to be possessive of anything. Not that she didn't TRY, we just always have corrected her when she growled, bit, barked when she wasn't supposed to, or whatever. Is that conditioning?

I mean...now that she's older, she doesn't think anything of us taking a bone, a toy, or whatever. Plus, we don't feel like we have to replace it with anything. Then again, she has so many toys, that she can always go find another.

The only reason we've taken a toy or bone away is if she's chewed it into very small parts which are dangerous for her to swallow- and you know puppies, they explore the world with their mouths!

As for being a "meanie"- heck, so am I about some things. I try not to be "mean" but if someone is doing something I think is a bad idea, I try to let them know in a no-nonsense kind of way.

If I ever have come off as sarcastic, it was unintentional. I know that we here at Chaz are from all different walks of life, etc., and what is common knowlege to one is not to another.

*shrugs*
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  #20  
Old 08-26-2006, 12:30 PM
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I think it does happen that another wolf will try to take something from another. It's just not something that they go around doing a lot, unless they're very, very hungry. And if they do, it appears that the other is "within his rights" to defend his bone. Even when an alpha is the one who tries to take it.

Quote:
I thought that the "alpha" was in control of everything. Food, toys, love, attention etc.
I don't think the alpha is in control of everything and what he is in control of, isn't all the time. I think it's mostly food distribution and breeding so it's seasonal.

And an alpha really, is usually nothing more than the Dad. A pack is usually a mom, dad and pups. It's not different than parents and parents are just naturally the leaders in all animals. So the term alpha really adds no information. It is not the tight, rigid pack situation that is often misinterpreted. Sometimes the alpha female is more "in control" than the alpha male...when she has pups, for instance. The alpha doesn't go around constantly displaying aggression or a lot of dominance posturing. And doesn't give a hoot about most things. That's why CM drives me nuts. He thinks everything is about dominance. Dominate or be dominated. That's ridiculous IMO. Plus.....our domestic dogs aren't even wolves! LOL. We've lived with them for a very long time. And they are quite different behaviorally.

So, I don't know. It's personal preference how you want to look at it, I guess. If it's within your right to take something since you are the "alpha" or... if it's a case of "I need to take that, but here.....have this instead." I tend to see my dogs as my partners, the whole relationship is a give and take thing, mutually beneficial. I teach or lead, but I get behaviors I want by making it benefit the dog to give me the behavior I want. It's just the way I perceive things...probably on account of the amazement and gladness I possess about the very process of domestication with humans. I've been doing a lot of research on this and it was always a synergistic relationship. The tamest wolves came close to man, alerted and protected man against predators, helped man hunt etc.... and man in turn fed them and gave them shelter and companionship. They changed over a long period of time into what we now have. And I just have an innate appreciation for this two way street sort of respect. Of course, like any child, they need rules and boundaries, but it's HOW we get the behaviors we want that I'm concerned with. I don't feel that I have a right to over dominate a dog.

Last edited by Doberluv; 08-26-2006 at 12:48 PM.
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