Breeding for Size and Mass(Rottweilers)

[Fran27]

Originally Posted by gatethekeeper

Mordy-Thanks for the link. You saved me alot of hassle because i almost went to them. They are close to me so i thought it would be nice to be able to see the pups. Whats wrong with them by the way??

Well, their guarantees etc are good on dysplasia, but they only offer to exchange the pup, not to help with surgeries... and who would exchange their dog because of dysplasia anyway? And look at the whelping dates, they seem to have one litter every week or something - NOT good. You want two litters a year or so, so they have time to socialize the puppies as they should. Also, two breeds is usually not a good sign, it doesn't give enough time to really focus on a breed and breed to better the breed. Also no mention of spay/neuter contracts... nor of temperament testing... And they don't list their females...

Originally Posted by gatethekeeper

Also, i understand all about the show quality breeders. My point is, that i dont want to spend 2000 on a show quality pup when another breeder offers all the same same stuff for half the price because they arent "up to show specs" And unfortunettly i cant find a show breeder who has cheaper non show quality pups..

You'll find lots of different opinions about breeding for showing and for pet quality... The problem is that often other breeders will not offer the same stuff for half the price. You won't get the same guatantees, and lots of them don't test hips, eyes and temperament - and you REALLY want a dog with parents tested for those. And be extra careful with breeders that have too many litters, it means the pups won't get the socialization they need before they are sold.

[bubbatd]

That's what bothers me too, Fran. I know what goes into 8-9 weeks of socialization !!

[gatethekeeper]

Originally Posted by tempura tantrum

You think that Lizzie didn't understand what you were asking for...she absolutely did.

We all KNOW you DON'T want a show dog. So don't get your knickers in a twist, and really *read* what people are saying- don't just throw a hissy fit the minute you see the words "AKC," or "show."

What the hell are you talking about. Where did i get upset about AKC and SHOW. I was just trying to explain what i was saying better. What i said to lizzie was about the size. Because the way everyone was responding, made it sound like thats what i wanted, was a huge dog. And thats not it. But thanks for speaking for lizzie.

What we are TRYING to tell you is that REPUTABLE show breeders ALWAYS end up producing pet-quality puppies in every litter. Only the typiest pups, with the best conformation and that extra sparkle, end up being show dogs. Very rarely does an entire litter bred by a show breeder end up being show quality. The rest of the puppies go to pet homes- homes like yours, to be exact.These puppies are generally far less expensive than show prospects.

Right, but as i was trying to say, i cant find a breeder who offers them. (Open for suggestions) Every breeder i have found, only advertises the Show quality dogs.

They will be FAR more healthy than any dogs bred by someone whose main concern is breeding the "biggest Rottie possible." People who breed outside of standard (especially SO FAR outside of it), do NOT have either the breed, or your pup's health in their best interest. What they generally ARE breeding for is money, and money alone.

Thats exzactly what i wanted to know..

If you're going into Rotties you want to make sure you're getting one from the best place possible. And yes...this may mean having to deal with some "AKC B.S." But it beats the hell out of going through B.S. like hip dysplasia, unsound temperaments, and the like.

Yeah why do you keep saying AKC bullshit...

By the way...if you think pups from show breeders are expensive, have you ever wondered how much a hip dysplasia surgery costs? Depending on the damage...a fair bit more. My neighbors spent a cool 5 grand per hip on their golden...(you can bet their NEXT puppy came from a reputable breeder).

Also...if price is your number one issue, have you thought about looking into Rottweiler rescue?

[/QUOTE]

Im not looking for a cheap puppy. I found one breeder who wasnt selling puppies as show puppies but did offer alot of things i was looking for..however, he was far away. So again, thats why i asked...
I think maybe you need to READ what i said. And price is not the issue, paying extra for a dog that i dont care about showing, bothers me.

[DanL]

The breeder Mordy listed might have had some negative points with regard to help with surgery, but how many breeders do that? Did Redyre do that with her dogs? Did Grammy? Any of the other people who are breeders here do that? Or is a guarantee enough? How far do you expect a breeder to go for every pup they produce. I mean, I wouldn't give away my dog if he got HD but if it got so bad he couldn't move, and I couldn't afford the surgery, I wouldn't expect the breeder to pay for it. I don't know a lot about evaluating breeders but they do seem to have some good points- Their bitches are only bred 2 times and then retires. All of them seem to be titled in some way. I saw several IPO and Sch titles on both males and females, so at least they can pass basic working qualifications. Those titles have a temprament test as part of the certification, so they ARE doing a temprament test.

As far as the extensive medical tests, I guess you'd have to ask what they do- maybe they perform all the required tests but don't have it listed on the web. This kennel is producing dogs with workability in their lines, who are also capable of conformation. Their guarantee even states if you purchase a show dog and it doesn't finish by a certain age they will replace it. Is that a common thing for breeders to do?

This might not be the best place to get a Rottie from, but it is by far not the worst. For a pet quality dog like the OP is looking for I wouldn't discount this kennel. The breeder we got Gunnar from had many of the same traits as this one but on a smaller scale, and we got a great dog from good lines. Will he have HD in 5 years? Hopefully not but who knows. If he does, we'll get through it.

Not everyone needs to have a pup from a kennel who follows every single point to the T in order to be the type of model breeder capable of passing muster among a lot of the people here. How many people who are making comments about what the OP should be looking for have actually purchased a dog from a breeder who has done EVERY single thing by the book in order to further the breed they purchased? Has everyone who has a purebred dog made sure that every possible genetic defect was tested for, that every sire and dam was titled and temprament tested and was the best possible representative of the breed?

[OutlineACDs]

I dont offer to pay for the surgery, but the option is full price of the puppy back, upon OFA's reading of the x-rays. And if I have any question, I can have MY vet do x-rays to send in to OFA.

I don't expect to see any puppies coming down w/ HD, thats why I test my dogs hips and elbows, but it could always happen.

[tempura tantrum]

Yeah why do you keep saying AKC bullshit

First off-

Chill out with the swearing. It doesn't make your point easier to understand (in fact, I'm pretty sure it was your use of expletives that confused me in the first place), nor does it make you sound any more intelligent. This is really not something to freak out about- just trying to help.

What the hell are you talking about. Where did i get upset about AKC and SHOW

I believe I may have gotten this impression along the lines of you saying "AKC B.S." for the 2nd time, along with something to the effect of "I don't give a **** about show dogs."

And are you serious? You can't find a reputable breeder that offers pet-quality puppies?
I have NO clue where you're looking, but any place that attempts to tell you ALL of their dogs are show quality is pulling your leg. Now people may not necessarily advertise them explicitly, but they're there. Try looking at breeder referral on the Rottweiler Club of America's website.

Or go to a dog show in your area (I'm sure you REALLY wanted to hear that) but this is where the GOOD breeders are hanging out. Most people would only be too happy to talk to you about a pet quality puppy (Provided you don't swear at them, or tell them what they're doing is B.S. ). When I bought my PET puppy (NOT a show dog), this is where I found my breeder. Even though I WASN'T interested in showing.

I'm assuming you've got to have a dog show or two *somewhere* in your vicinity. Many great breeders don't advertise- they simply don't need to. It's all about word of mouth.

paying extra for a dog that i dont care about showing, bothers me.

You do realize the same amount of time, love, socialization, food, medical care, etc. go into EACH puppy in a litter? Regardless of whether or not it's show quality. For this reason, many breeders who show their dogs have no price difference between show prospects and pet puppies.

[wolfsoul]

Originally Posted by tempura tantrum

You do realize the same amount of time, love, socialization, food, medical care, etc. go into EACH puppy in a litter? Regardless of whether or not it's show quality. For this reason, many breeders who show their dogs have no price difference between show prospects and pet puppies.

Not to mention, at 8 weeks of age, you have NO idea how that puppy is going to turn out. My foster, Candy, is a prime example -- I saw her every day from 8 weeks to five months. Her owner who has been in the breed for 15years was sure she was going to be stupendous; just spectacular. When her temperment didn't turn out, she was placed in a pet home and then returned 4 months later. She is undersize, has NO bone, her headplanes are incredibly unparallel, she has a roman nose, splayed paws, she's easty-westy, and her body is completely out of proportion. Can you imagine if her owner had paid a few hundred dollars more for that? Alot of breeders won't give you back the difference --- they require an exchange for a new "show" puppy. When you are a breeder and have limited kennel space, what choice do you have. That's why I'm not going to be charging higher prices for show puppies. At 8 weeks it's just too hard to know what you're going to get.

So I really wouldn't worry about paying the same amount for a pet quality puppy. Look at it this way -- maybe the pet puppy isn't as much as the show puppy -- the show puppy might as a much as the pet puppy, so really you're getting a good deal. But seriously, whether or not all of the puppies in the litter can be shown, not all of them will go to show homes. There just aren't enough show homes out there to make it feasible. A show breeder will not have any inhibitions about placing a puppy with you as long as you are a responsible owner. Alot of breeders will charge the same amount as a show pup and then send you back some money when they recieve proof that your puppy has been spayed.

[Mordy]

What's wrong with Kimbertal?

They are a commercial breeding operation and do not care about betterment of the breed in health and temperament, just about pumping out puppies for $$$. They pride themselves on "selling hundreds of dogs a year".

They knowingly breed dogs with poor temperaments with total disregard.

Yeah, they have a guarantee that they will take any dog back if there are problems with temperament, but that doesn't mean they breed to improve temperament, they just take the rejects back and pawn them off to the next unsuspecting person who happens to be looking for a dog.

They will not replace returned dogs that have been spayed or neutered, because they can't breed them for a profit anymore or pawn them out for their breeding program.

They knowingly breed dogs that do not fall within the breed standard.

Their way of doing business is a "no-cost breeding agreement" - people can obtain a female puppy which will be free under the condition they breed her twice and deliver the resulting puppies to the kennel at 7 weeks old.

The grounds may look nice, but it's just another Pennsylvanian puppy mill.

[Caren+Bailey]

I myself am fairly new to knowing the Difference between a "Show quality" puppy and a "Pet quality" puppy.

Since coming here and reading and taking in what people are saying it has taught me this...........

In the future if i were to purchase another dog i would rather pay the extra and get a "Show quality" puppy.
I wouldn't however show him/her b/c it doesn't interest me to do so.

The reason i would do this is b/c you are pretty much gauranteed that you 're getting what your paying for.
I wouldn't want to pay ££££'s for a dog and then have him/her suffer with HD or other genetic issues that could turn out to not only cost me more than double what i would of saved at the sale, but also having a puppy suffering too.

ETS: If your really not interested in the AKC/Showing side of things...........why don't you find a Rottie organisation and adopt?

[stevinski]

What's wrong with Kimbertal?

not to mention there dogs look like mastiffs!, just look at the dog at the top of there homepage