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  #41  
Old 08-01-2006, 02:33 PM
silverpawz silverpawz is offline
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How does a dog owner truly know if his dog is happy & confident?
Is the tail relaxed or wagging?
Are the ears relaxed? (not pined back)
Is the dog eager to train with you?

You know how your dog looks when he's happy right? When he playing with his favorite toy, when he's eager to get that yummy treat, when he's just hanging out and relxing with you? Observe his body language at those times and you'll see what a happy, relaxed dog looks like. If you see that when you're training as well then you're doing something right.

On the flipside, if the dog is cowering at any time, fliching, pinning the ears back, grumbling, snarking, submissive peeing, tail tucking, refusing to move, etc. those are NOT good signs and you should change your approach.
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  #42  
Old 08-01-2006, 02:39 PM
stags14
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Originally Posted by Roxy's CD
OK, I see a lot "hating" go on right now, and I don't quite understand why.

Some dogs do OK with corrections. Some do not. Different mixes of positive/negative work better/worse with different dogs.

I believe what dr2little is saying is that, purely motivational (negative verbal "guidlines" eh eh, wrong, no etc) works on ANY dog.

Of course these other methods work. But there is no need for physical correction to get your dog to do what you want.

stags14- That situation would never happen. Let's say it did. Hades has jumped on the counter is eating/sniffing human food. He would run to his kennel with his tail between his legs if he SAW me. He would take off like a bullet if he I said very firmly, "HADES! WRONG!".

I used the "balanced training" method with my dog, Roxy. (for basic obedience) IT WORKED! IT REALLY WORKED! FAST! BUUUUUUUUUT, we are now having serious motivational problems that since being pointed out to me are DIRECTLY related to the methods that were used to train her.

Things that were taught with purely motivational methods are FUN for her, she enjoys them I enjoy them. But like flicking a light switch off, when we switch to the things that were taught with leash corrections combined with verbal praise and treats, the DOG SHUTS DOWN. Quite literally, and no longer wants to work.

For only a few days, I have stopped using leash corrections and the only negative thing in our repetroire has been "Verbal guidlines", when she's headed the wrong way "Ah ah" or "wrong". And already I have seen a difference.

We will begin purely motivational training tonight, and I will post how it goes. I am confident that I WILL SEE CHANGE in her. Not a huge difference, but I will se a happier dog in school tonight.

If not, I'll eat all those words and start looking for another method.
So when you are walking her, and she pulls on the leash, are you going to change directions and go the way that she wants to go? If you didn't, the dog would certainly feel a physical pull. And that physical pull would go against everything you are saying. With your method, you would never want your dog to feel any type of force on the leash. That means you would have to follow her - and not have her follow you.

Who pointed out that your methods DIRECTLY resulted in your dog no longer being motivated? I am sure there are many people that train police dogs and assistance dpgs that would disagree with you.

And by the way - because you have already made up your mind about what the best methods are - you will see what you want to see. Just like when a mother says to the newspaper "There is no way my precious little Ted Bundy could be a murderer - he did not do those things"....
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  #43  
Old 08-01-2006, 02:50 PM
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First of all, positive reward, using primary and secondary enforcers (operant and classical conditioning based methods) is what I subscribe to. I put the vast emphasis on the motivation and reward aspect of it because science has proven that it is more effective to an animal's learning than is admistering aversives. Not only has this been demonstrated scientifically, but I am more comfortable with it and it works very well. I have seen who uses this type of training methods, their results and their credentials, where they work, what they work with and it is indeed impressive. These PhDs in applied animal behavior use mainly reward based methods and in many cases completely void of aversives. This is not to say that I don't tell my dogs not to do something. I do. I don't always take the time to do things the way I know they could be handled. I too, am still learning and developing new habits. I would not hesitate to pull my dog off the counter if he were jumping up and telling him, "eh-eh." And when he sat and stayed off, let him know that's what I want and reward him. I don't use collar corrections or harsh vocalizations when training obedience or agility. It's all motivation and reward...all of it. And my Doberman is very obedient, extraordinarily enthusiastic about whatever I ask him to do. His recall is superb and reliable and very prompt. He use to run into me, he was coming so fast...when he was a pup. LOL. I have used both methods (in the old days). And I see a huge difference in the dogs, their ability to think is increased, they are smarter than when forced to comply and our bond runs deeper. It's even better than it was with previous dogs.

Quote:
Also - please explain to me in detail how you would handle your dog walking into the kitchen, jumping up on the counter and stealing food. Would you just stand there and let the dog eat your chicken dinner? Would you take it away without saying a word? Would you give a gentle leash correction and a firm no when he tried to jump up on the counter? Would you give a firm no when he jumped up on the counter if you were not holding a leash? Would you let him continue to walk in the kitchen and grab food as he saw fit, and reward him on the rare occasion that he didn't jump up on the counter to grab food? Please explain to me in very specific details how you would handle this situation
Of course, if the dog was in the act of stealing food, I'd pull him off and probably tell him, "eh-eh!" I am not talking about not telling a dog not to do something once in a while. I'm talking about choke collars, yanking on the neck hard, intimidating a dog...spraying vinegar in his face and all the other brands of aversives I hear about. I prefer to try and set the dog up....set the environment up so that I don't have to use an over abundance of "no" and "eh-eh!" If a dog hears that all day long, he starts tuning you out. Those words need to have been associated with some pretty harsh punishment at one time or they wouldn't be stopping a behavior. Science shows that positive reward is more effective than positive punishment in the way dogs learn.

My Doberman, as a pup did this. He was so tall at an early age. If I forgot and left anything on the counter, he'd snatch it if I weren't looking. Now, if I had punished him harshly (a sharp NO! or hard yank) for that, the way dogs think, based on my studies of behavior, is that the dog would learn that it is dangerous to steal food in my presence, but safe to steal it when I'm not around. They don't have a sense of our morals so do not think they're doing something "naughty." It's just rewarding to them to get food off the counter. Jumping up works. It's a self rewarding behavior. So, they're getting reinforced for the jumping up everytime they get something good.

With Lyric, I realized quickly that I had to keep food off the counters religiously, never slipping up. After one or two times of his getting something, I kept those counters clean as a whistle at all times. He'd jump up.....nothing, no reward, no reinforcement. That behavior stopped after several more tries. No payoff, behavior ceases. When it stopped working for him to jump up, he stopped jumping up. When he'd hang out in the kitchen watching me cook and remained "polite"....standing back a ways, not being too pushy, I'd take him over a few feet further and ask him to sit or down and I'd give him a tasty, high value treat. He learned that if he sat nicely, he just might get lucky. There was no need to jump up on the counter.

He is now just about 3 years old (his birthday is the 6th!) I can leave food on the counter now and he still doesn't jump up. That behavior never got a chance to form a habit. And an alternative way to get food replaced it. I can be in the other room, in the den or wherever, leave a steak thawing on the counter and it's safe.

My four dogs all lie down 10 ft. from my table when I have guests for dinner. They stay put for as long as the dinner lasts. When dinner is over and I'm cleaning the dishes, that's when they get some handouts for their efforts. They know they will get food and yummy food at that when they perform the behavior I like. This they learned gradually...in baby steps, rewarding frequently as they stayed. Now they only need a reward at the end of the 1/2 hour or so it takes to eat dinner. They lie there wagging their tails and watching us. They get told periodically how wonderful they are. They were never scolded, told "no" or yanked if they broke the stay. They were simply replaced and we'd start over...maybe rewarding a little closer together. And we didn't start out with a whole 1/2 hour of course. LOL. 1 minute, then 2, then 4 etc.
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  #44  
Old 08-01-2006, 02:52 PM
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suzanne clothier on positive punishment. i think she says things very well.
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  #45  
Old 08-01-2006, 03:01 PM
stags14
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Originally Posted by Doberluv
First of all, positive reward, using primary and secondary enforcers (operant and classical conditioning based methods) is what I subscribe to. I put the vast emphasis on the motivation and reward aspect of it because science has proven that it is more effective to an animal's learning than is admistering aversives. Not only has this been demonstrated scientifically, but I am more comfortable with it and it works very well. I have seen who uses this type of training methods, their results and their credentials, where they work, what they work with and it is indeed impressive. These PhDs in applied animal behavior use mainly reward based methods and in many cases completely void of aversives. This is not to say that I don't tell my dogs not to do something. I do. I don't always take the time to do things the way I know they could be handled. I too, am still learning and developing new habits. I would not hesitate to pull my dog off the counter if he were jumping up and telling him, "eh-eh." And when he sat and stayed off, let him know that's what I want and reward him. I don't use collar corrections or harsh vocalizations when training obedience or agility. It's all motivation and reward...all of it. And my Doberman is very obedient, extraordinarily enthusiastic about whatever I ask him to do. His recall is superb and reliable and very prompt. He use to run into me, he was coming so fast...when he was a pup. LOL. I have used both methods (in the old days). And I see a huge difference in the dogs, their ability to think is increased, they are smarter than when forced to comply and our bond runs deeper. It's even better than it was with previous dogs.



Of course, if the dog was in the act of stealing food, I'd pull him off and probably tell him, "eh-eh!" I am not talking about not telling a dog not to do something once in a while. I'm talking about choke collars, yanking on the neck hard, intimidating a dog...spraying vinegar in his face and all the other brands of aversives I hear about. I prefer to try and set the dog up....set the environment up so that I don't have to use an over abundance of "no" and "eh-eh!" If a dog hears that all day long, he starts tuning you out. Those words need to have been associated with some pretty harsh punishment at one time or they wouldn't be stopping a behavior. Science shows that positive reward is more effective than positive punishment in the way dogs learn.

My Doberman, as a pup did this. He was so tall at an early age. If I forgot and left anything on the counter, he'd snatch it if I weren't looking. Now, if I had punished him harshly (a sharp NO! or hard yank) for that, the way dogs think, based on my studies of behavior, is that the dog would learn that it is dangerous to steal food in my presence, but safe to steal it when I'm not around. They don't have a sense of our morals so do not think they're doing something "naughty." It's just rewarding to them to get food off the counter. Jumping up works. It's a self rewarding behavior. So, they're getting reinforced for the jumping up everytime they get something good.

With Lyric, I realized quickly that I had to keep food off the counters religiously, never slipping up. After one or two times of his getting something, I kept those counters clean as a whistle at all times. He'd jump up.....nothing, no reward, no reinforcement. That behavior stopped after several more tries. No payoff, behavior ceases. When it stopped working for him to jump up, he stopped jumping up. When he'd hang out in the kitchen watching me cook and remained "polite"....standing back a ways, not being too pushy, I'd take him over a few feet further and ask him to sit or down and I'd give him a tasty, high value treat. He learned that if he sat nicely, he just might get lucky. There was no need to jump up on the counter.

He is now just about 3 years old (his birthday is the 6th!) I can leave food on the counter now and he still doesn't jump up. That behavior never got a chance to form a habit. And an alternative way to get food replaced it. I can be in the other room, in the den or wherever, leave a steak thawing on the counter and it's safe.

My four dogs all lie down 10 ft. from my table when I have guests for dinner. They stay put for as long as the dinner lasts. When dinner is over and I'm cleaning the dishes, that's when they get some handouts for their efforts. They know they will get food and yummy food at that when they perform the behavior I like. This they learned gradually...in baby steps, rewarding frequently as they stayed. Now they only need a reward at the end of the 1/2 hour or so it takes to eat dinner. They lie there wagging their tails and watching us. They get told periodically how wonderful they are. They were never scolded, told "no" or yanked if they broke the stay. They were simply replaced and we'd start over...maybe rewarding a little closer together. And we didn't start out with a whole 1/2 hour of course. LOL. 1 minute, then 2, then 4 etc.
So using your own logic, the dog learns that he is rewarded when you are around, and not rewarded when you are not around.... Therefore when youare not in his presence, he will not be getting anything good and he must fend for himself.
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  #46  
Old 08-01-2006, 03:11 PM
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Doberluv Doberluv is offline
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He is now just about 3 years old (his birthday is the 6th!) I can leave food on the counter now and he still doesn't jump up. That behavior never got a chance to form a habit. And an alternative way to get food replaced it. I can be in the other room, in the den or wherever, leave a steak thawing on the counter and it's safe.
Did you read my post? I reached my goal with my dog.
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  #47  
Old 08-01-2006, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by stags14
So when you are walking her, and she pulls on the leash, are you going to change directions and go the way that she wants to go? If you didn't, the dog would certainly feel a physical pull. And that physical pull would go against everything you are saying. With your method, you would never want your dog to feel any type of force on the leash. That means you would have to follow her - and not have her follow you.

Who pointed out that your methods DIRECTLY resulted in your dog no longer being motivated? I am sure there are many people that train police dogs and assistance dpgs that would disagree with you.

And by the way - because you have already made up your mind about what the best methods are - you will see what you want to see. Just like when a mother says to the newspaper "There is no way my precious little Ted Bundy could be a murderer - he did not do those things"....
Nope, instead of using a voldhard the past few days, I've instead been using a high value treat and not once has she had any type of tension on the leash.

For two reasons:
1) She already respects the leash
2) I have been showing her, and making it "fun" for her to be close to me in proper heel position. The few times she stopped to sniff I firm "ah ah", and she was right back on track. Yes I have been treating her a lot, but I really want to enforce her reaction to this new, mainly positive method.

I know my dog. Period. I know that "balanced training" is NOT working. And if you've read any of my posts regarding the last few months of Roxy's intense obedience training you would agree.

It's very clear. Heeling/stand for exam. tail is between legs, ears are back and she verbally shows her displeasure. She has been known to snarl/growl and SHOW HER TEETH.

Isn't it funny that when we do activities that were taught with purely motivational methods, this highly "reactive dog" (to leash corrections/physical corrections) becomes this happy, very vocal animal that verbal praise is enough of a reward???

When the best treat, the happiest tone of voice NOTHING can motivate her when we do a stand for exam.? (which she has been getting leash corrections for)

The proof is in the pudding. I am NOT going to say that purely motivational works if it doesn't. I'm sure neither of these DOG TRAINERS on the board would be in business if they advocated something that DIDN'T WORK.

We will see in the next few weeks how much a change I see in Roxy. If it doesn't work, there is no change, I won't lie. It doesn't better either of our learning experiences.

But I do know that "balanced training" IS NOT working. Plain and simple.
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  #48  
Old 08-01-2006, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Doberluv
Did you read my post? I reached my goal with my dog.
Did you read the question, she asked what you'd do with a year old rescue?? not your own dog that you are the only one around, with no kids, and live in the country by yourself and are home with the dogs all the time.

What would you do with a year old rescue, one that has had many successes on counter surfing??? If you had kids, that every so often something was going to be left out?? and that is going to be the big pay off and reinforce it even more. You've read all the phd's and everything, so you should know this theory of reinforcement schedules planned or not. What would you do??
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  #49  
Old 08-01-2006, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by elegy
suzanne clothier on positive punishment. i think she says things very well.
Here's another article by her-about (GASP!) advocating the use of a prong collar!
http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html

She at least understands that certain tools are sometimes necessary for certain dogs. I can respect that.
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  #50  
Old 08-01-2006, 03:45 PM
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dr2little dr2little is offline
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Originally Posted by stags14
So you have used corrections on your child. Then why wouldn't you tell your dog "No" in a firm voice?

Here is one of my biggest questions. I have been on here only one day and I have read multiple times by positive only proponents that a gentle but firm leash correction does not really teach your dog anything. Correcting is human psychology - not dog psychology. OK - but isn't a puppy corrected by its mother when it does something wrong? Of course it is. Is a puppy given tons of praise and treats from its mother when it does something right? Of course it is NOT.

It seems to me that corrections are a natural way of learning for the dog and that tons of praise/treats/affection is a huminization of the dog to make overly sensitive people feel better about little fluffy. What am I missing??

Also - please explain to me in detail how you would handle your dog walking into the kitchen, jumping up on the counter and stealing food. Would you just stand there and let the dog eat your chicken dinner? Would you take it away without saying a word? Would you give a gentle leash correction and a firm no when he tried to jump up on the counter? Would you give a firm no when he jumped up on the counter if you were not holding a leash? Would you let him continue to walk in the kitchen and grab food as he saw fit, and reward him on the rare occasion that he didn't jump up on the counter to grab food? Please explain to me in very specific details how you would handle this situation.
I think that you are skimming my posts. I have never, ever disagreed with verbal correction.
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