Spay/Neuter ALL the time?

[doberkim]

Originally Posted by elegy

in conformation, yes. but we're not talking about conformation. we're talking about weight-pull. and it weight pull it doesn't matter what the dog looks like as long as they pull the weight, which means, no, they don't need to be intact.

and no offense, but can someone who has actually done weight pull tell us how much advanced training is necessary for pulling? as compared to a dog competing in utility obedience, or working towards their MACH?
do the dogs need to know directionals? does the dog work off leash away from the owner? does the dog need to deal with distraction and ignore them? does the dog interact with other dogs and need to ignore them? does the dog need to obey with the owner out of sight?

this isnt to discount the physical nature weight pulling takes, or the training it involves, or the fact that you need to have a dog that will pull even when something isnt moving.


but then comparing that to a dog that must heel off leash, work at a distance from the owner, use scent discrimination, jump, ignore other dogs off leash when th eowner is not present, and work in a situation in which it could easily choose to NOT work and leave the ring, etc - i don't think the two are comparable.


mach 1- can you share with us what you have accomplished with your dogs besides allowing them to accidentally reproduce?

[Mach1girl]

I have heard enough ignorant "cut downs". The remarks about accidental litters has gone far enough!

Ya know, I was DIEING, and my husband did what he thought was a good deed. And you know what?It gave me stregnth. So to all that continue to bash this "accidental breeding" you can F off!
I would love to have you walk in my shoes, just once, through the chemo, through all the needles, through the bone deterioration in my knees from the chemo, through the slight hair loss, through the throwing up, through looking at my kids and not knowing how long I'd be here for them...through it all! You have no right to judge me until you have been here. And if you think you do??Then F off again!

And what I have learned, and taught my dogs, are the commands as in "pull" "heel" "WAIT" etc. The dogs do not have to interact with others, they can be whatever to a point, too much aggressivness can cause your dog to be DQ'd. But an amount is allowed if controllable, and doesnt interfere with others performing.
The dogs are getting used to the harnesses now, and dragging milk jugs. They will eventually move into weight and work up.
Dixie i sdoing weight, but not much.(yet)
The more commands they know, basic obedience, the better, however, not a major fundamental.The dog is not off leash until the pull. When the time starts and you let go, the dog pulls 16 feet in 60 seconds or less, you can dance, sing, whatever to get your dog to make it to the end. Some clubs allow bait.

Oh and by the way, it depends on the CLUB whether or not the dog can be altered. The club that comes here you cannot have an altered dog for WP, some clubs sanctioned by UKC allow, but alot do not. I found that out. Better to not have them done in case one that does not allow comes to town.

I havent learned everything off the net either, as I said I have attended seminars taught by professionals, I keep in touch with these profs in the club for any advice needed.

And for the record, Dixie isnt half as aggressive as she once was............I strongly beleive the litter has changed her. She no longer acts a fool like she did. Do I trust her??Hell no! But she is changed enough to compete, and carry on her long line of WP wins in her family.Tis is one reason we got her.

So, again until you heva been there, dont judge me, if any other floosey came here with a similar situation you'd all feel sorry, but since I am who I am , you think I automatically do not know what is going on around me.
Dont forget I have had APBT for over 20 years and have always been highly involved with the breed. I have done rescue, I have attended shows, I have assisted with training, I have attended many obedience and agility classes, and trained my dogs in the areas.
I had never bred, and because of what happened you think you can constantly find every post that I make and turn it on me.
Not mentioning any names, but especially one individual in particular.......
I did not BYB, and I was not risking losing my WP dog due to a spay because of what happened, NOR was I going to tell my husband that the result of his loving gesture was going to be a litter of dead puppies.
So get over it and move on.

[weylyn]

MACH, who are these professionals you speak of? Club requirements aside...What professionals are saying a dog needs its nads or reproductive organs to sustain good drive?

[dogstarsleddogs]

OK, how about this- you show us where you have gotten your info that altered dogs dont have as much drive, and they must be not be altered to compete, and we will all forget everything and drop the topic. Deal Everyone?

[ChiBree]

Look at my recent experience. While being under for a C-section I almost lost my chi. I WILL NOT be getting her spayed. I will never risk that again. Any surgery is a risk. Everytime I've signed that little piece of paper before a spay or neuter I thought "oh that will never happen to me" well.....guess what? I signed that piece of apaper again before her surgery and it DID happen Thank god my Vet is good and brought her back I think its a personal choice. Do what your heart feels is best for YOU and YOUR DOG. Good luck

[lakotasong]

Originally Posted by ChiBree

Look at my recent experience. While being under for a C-section I almost lost my chi. I WILL NOT be getting her spayed. I will never risk that again. Any surgery is a risk.

SMH. I at least hope you will watch your dogs better to prevent further accidental litters. It's a pity that you believe the reason you almost lost your bitch was simply because she was under.

[ChiBree]

My beliefs are MY beliefs and what I do is MY choice. I don't care what anyone else thinks I should do - didn't ask. I was addressing the person asking advice and just letting them know my experience.

[lakotasong]

Originally Posted by Mach1girl

Ya know, I was DIEING, and my husband did what he thought was a good deed. And you know what?It gave me stregnth. So to all that continue to bash this "accidental breeding" you can F off!
I would love to have you walk in my shoes, just once, through the chemo, through all the needles, through the bone deterioration in my knees from the chemo, through the slight hair loss, through the throwing up, through looking at my kids and not knowing how long I'd be here for them...through it all! You have no right to judge me until you have been here. And if you think you do??Then F off again!

My father was diagnosed with cancer about a year and a half ago. I've been there with him through chemo, surgery, the hair loss, sitting up with him while he cried because of how much pain he was in... My Uncle Tom died from cancer three months ago.

I truly am sorry that you have cancer. I would not wish any type of cancer on anyone.

However, all of that in no way excuses being irresponsible with your dogs and sputtering out misinformation.

Originally Posted by Mach1girl

I havent learned everything off the net either, as I said I have attended seminars taught by professionals, I keep in touch with these profs in the club for any advice needed.

What seminars? Which professionals?

[doberkim]

lord, dont tell me now youre falling into the typical BYB excuse of you have (insert any disease here) and thats why you bred... im sorry you have cancer, but it has no reason, and is no excuse, for anything.

Originally Posted by Mach1girl

And what I have learned, and taught my dogs, are the commands as in "pull" "heel" "WAIT" etc. The dogs do not have to interact with others, they can be whatever to a point, too much aggressivness can cause your dog to be DQ'd. But an amount is allowed if controllable, and doesnt interfere with others performing.
The dogs are getting used to the harnesses now, and dragging milk jugs. They will eventually move into weight and work up.
Dixie i sdoing weight, but not much.(yet)

thats great. i have worked dogs up at the open level of obedience. i have trained, titled and shown, albeit of a limited nature due to time and funds (and again, not giving up my dogs for something better). i have had dogs that have wonderful attention, heads up heeling. knew heel, sit, down, finish (left and right). SFE, moving stands, down in motions, started on directed retrieves and go outs, targets, scent discrimination. started on tracking and doing scent pads and short tracks (we just never got to indicating articles), started on drafting. dog that went to shows with 1800 other INTACT animals, and did fine - off leash, in rings. my dog passed the CGC, passed a therapy dog test (though i could never certify him ethically, so i didnt pursue it), was the other dog in the CGC exam for two local dog clubs. he was started in agility basics, working on both sides, directionals, etc.

my dog was the first doberman IN THIS NATION to get a qualifying rally leg. he was one of the first THREE DOGS in the nation to qualify, PERIOD.
he would have been the first doberman in this nation to get his RN, except i didnt enter the last show that weekend due to vet school.


and youre telling me he was somehow less than yours because his BALLS were cut off and his magic wand shot blanks? sorry - you have absolutely NO BASIS for which to judge a working dog, PERIOD. you haven't shown that you understand what drive is, or how to harness it, at all - and that is a fundamental part of training a dog and understanding what to do with them, and how to get there.

The more commands they know, basic obedience, the better, however, not a major fundamental.The dog is not off leash until the pull. When the time starts and you let go, the dog pulls 16 feet in 60 seconds or less, you can dance, sing, whatever to get your dog to make it to the end. Some clubs allow bait.

ok - so again, how does this make wp somehow better and more in need of drive than obedience and agility? except for rally - i couldnt talk to my dog except for commands, no dancing, no singing, no coaxing. youre talking down about sports that you have NO IDEA what they entail. from what you describe, your dog needs very little training or control PERIOD for weight pull - just needs to PULL. and that is certainly NOT the case with obedience and agility.

[weylyn]

First off, I'll admit I have little to no experience in WP...BUT...one thing I remember that is stressed is that the dog doesn't train in prey drive. It can be unsafe, depending on how much prey drive the dog has.

"Not only is baiting against the rules but relying on your dogs prey instincts could lead to problems down the road"
Scot E. Dowd (Matrix Kennels)

Look at my recent experience. While being under for a C-section I almost lost my chi. I WILL NOT be getting her spayed. I will never risk that again. Any surgery is a risk.

I don't want to downplay the stress of almost losing your dog, ChiBree, but everything is a risk. Feeding your dog is a risk (choking/etc), letting your dog outside is a risk (getting stolen/lost/eating poison/etc), letting your dog play with other dogs is a risk, giving your pet vaccinations is a risk, giving your pet medications is a risk and the list goes on. You really can't say your dog will never have surgery, in her old age she might need it. *shrugs*