Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > The Breeding Ground


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-20-2006, 05:32 AM
ihartgonzo's Avatar
ihartgonzo ihartgonzo is offline
and Fozzie B!
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Northern California
Posts: 5,903
Default Is This Wrong?

Ok... so, there is a Border Collie female named Belle training with my Flyball team. Her owner brought her to classes while in heat last week -_-, and I got into a conversation with her about her decision to breed Belle. She is a very sweet dog, but I for real thought she must be mixed with a spaniel or a Golden, because the most BC thing about her is her markings, period. Belle has cleared health certs, and is AKC pointed. I think she only needs 1 major before she's a Champion (therefore, she forfeits an ABCA registration). The owner has bred Papillons and is involved in Papillon rescue, she got a BC because she wanted a bigger dog to show, because bending over so much to show her Paps was getting harder with age (LOL at that one). But, I'm positive the pups would be well raised and socialized. Belle has never seen livestock, but she does a bit of Agility & Flyball with her for fun.

Other people on the team seem to support her, but me & the one other really enthusiastic BC lady are kind of sick over it. Belle is super mild-mannered and a dog that could be trusted with about anything, but I have never seen an ounce of intensity in her. She's stocky & tall (about 15 lbs larger than my male BC), fluffy, short-muzzled, & tires after a few runs. Besides that, she just does not care about working either way... and she's super slow! I mean, she's a wonderful family dog, but literally a black & white Golden Retriever! I have never seen her actually focus on the ball, her owner, other dogs, n o t h i n g. This dog basically bumbles around, like "Ohhh, a ball", and does not even pick it up or bring it back half the time. When I met her, I thought she may be a senior dog, but she isn't even 2 years old!

Basically, what is everyone's view on this? She IS health tested, proven in conformation, very friendly & social, but basically dull as could be. I would guess that she *could* pass her CGC with a very easy trainer, but even if she did earn that, is it ethical for her owner to breed her? I kind of want to know partly, to see if I'm just snobby. But I would honestly prefer a sometimes overwhelmingly high-herding-drive BC to one that would be perfectly content to lay around indoors all day & that would just wag their tail at livestock.

This is Belle: (note the intensity when retrieving the ball :P)




This is Bailey, the other BC-enthusiast's working-bred dog. She is beginning to trial on sheep already and she's only 1 year old. She's also nearly done with Flyball training, even though she has chasing habits:


__________________


<3 Erica, Gonzo & Fozzie
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-20-2006, 06:41 AM
Red_ACD_for_me's Avatar
Red_ACD_for_me Red_ACD_for_me is offline
Ruled by a RED boy!
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Massachusetts, Boston
Posts: 2,922
Default

First off, the lady is CRAZY to bring a female out in public that is in heat anywhere let alone a flyball meeting. Is there any intact males on the team Also, don't forget that they are breeding alot of the show dogs these days that can't work but are beautiful specimens for show (very controversial) thus the non existing intensity you don't see. That being said, if she has had her health clearences then I guess it is okay to have her bred . Not to sure on that one because I believe you stated that she isn't even 2 years yet and she probably hasn't had her hips done, or has she?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-20-2006, 07:27 AM
LizzieCollie's Avatar
LizzieCollie LizzieCollie is offline
Collie Crazy
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 291
Default

She looks like a beautiful girl and a typical example of the show bred BC. Its good to get a laid back BC once in a while because they are just getting to nutty and high drive. She can be bred to a higher energy dog to hopefully balance things out.

Why do you say she doesnt look purebred? She certainly does look purebred, but she is a show dog. You are probably used to seeing those raggly looking working and pet BC's.

Edited to add: Its the same thing with me and show Collies. I am so used to seeing the show bred Collies that when I look at my girl (working lines) I say 'Whats wrong with her, she has no coat!' Also I never did ear training with Lizzie so her ears prick but she is purebred
__________________
Julitza

Last edited by LizzieCollie; 07-20-2006 at 08:17 AM. Reason: Show BC
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-20-2006, 07:58 AM
RedyreRottweilers
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

My bitches go lots of places with me when in season, however, I would NOT take them to any working event without prior permission, and if I did, I would keep them well away from the working area.

Bitches in season are routinely shown at Breed shows, but one should always be considerate of those with intact males if you have a girl who is in.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-20-2006, 08:44 AM
tessa_s212
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

LIzziCollie, she actually does look like many BC/Spaniel crosses I have seen. She doesn't even loook like the show bred BCs...
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-20-2006, 08:45 AM
tessa_s212
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Oh, as for your question, I think it is very young. *shakes head* ...how sad...how ignorant...
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-20-2006, 09:01 AM
ihartgonzo's Avatar
ihartgonzo ihartgonzo is offline
and Fozzie B!
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Northern California
Posts: 5,903
Default

Hm... I can understand the opinions above. Still, it kills me as much as it would kill me to see her breeding Border-doodles or whatever. To me, this girl is miles from being a BC, no matter how she looks. It's not just the pictures, it's her presence that is nowhere near to being a good specimen on the breed.

I kind of don't get the "raggly" comment xP. If by, having a lean, athletic, wash-n-wear build that Border Collies had 100+ years before BC's were introduced to the AKC, I guess that's raggly. I feel the opposite... I feel that Bailey is a gorgeous girl (despite NOT conforming to the AKC standard because of the percentage of white on her) and is waaaay superior in structure & ability to Belle. Gonzo is also quite "raggly", but I would honestly choose him as better breeding stock... of course with health clearances and such. To me, a stocky dog who is not built for speed/endurance/work & with a fluffy coat that is not practical for rough terrain, cannot be a superior example of the breed... much less a dog that has no instinct at all.

I hate that BC's are being dumbed down, I guess, to fit a mold of society. If the average person cannot handle a BC as they are intended to be (and the average person definitely cannot), they should look into other, lower drive breeds. And the "nutty" Border Collies you meet... I'm guessing all of those dogs are under-worked completely. My BC is almost as drivey as they get, and he's totally sane and sweet because he gets plenty of mental/physical stimulation, which is not provided to way too many pet dogs of this breed. I have never met a BC that is regularly worked who is nutty, at all. There are higher-drive BC's out there that should be toned down, but then there are plenty of wonderful working dogs who are not as high-strung. To me, it makes no sense to continuously work towards a trend in this country to breed dogs that "look" like Border Collies (just "prettier") but aren't as "high-drive" (ie, actually having the ability & desire to go out and work all day, which is the breed's purpose) or as "nutty" (ie, wanting to be with their people not sitting around alone all day while their owners are out working - or craving mental stimulation when the most they get is re-arranging the yard/house)... why NOT just cross BC's with Saint Bernards until you get a dog that LOOKS like a pretty Border Collie and might want to fetch a ball for 15 minutes a day, but won't ask for a job as they were intended to have, is friendly with anyone & everyone, and is happy sleeping the day away? That is seriously how I feel sometimes. And, having a drivey BC that requires lots of time & work and is 1000x more than worth it all, it kills me to see the breed being used like it is. As important as conformation is for a toy Poodle, working drive is to a Border Collie... and IMO to any herding breed.
__________________


<3 Erica, Gonzo & Fozzie
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-20-2006, 09:04 AM
ihartgonzo's Avatar
ihartgonzo ihartgonzo is offline
and Fozzie B!
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Northern California
Posts: 5,903
Default

And let me clarify... this lady is responsible as far as health tests go. Belle's hips & elbows & eyes have been cleared. And she is not breeding her until her next heat, which is in the fall - to a Champion Conformation (not working) male.
__________________


<3 Erica, Gonzo & Fozzie
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-20-2006, 09:55 AM
Gempress Gempress is offline
Walks into Mordor
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 11,955
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LizzieCollie
She looks like a beautiful girl and a typical example of the show bred BC. Its good to get a laid back BC once in a while because they are just getting to nutty and high drive. She can be bred to a higher energy dog to hopefully balance things out.
I don't agree at all. Temperament is an integral part of a breed's identity; that's why it's described in the standard. BCs are suppossed to have a strong, high working drive. To me, breeding a Border Collie with no energy and low drive would be as bad as breeding a BC with a serious conformation fault.

Would a mellow BC be a better pet? Yes, it would. But it would be a bad example of a border collie! They weren't meant to have the personality of a lap dog! So many breeds are becoming watered-down in temperament as breeders try to make their dogs more suitable for pet homes. I don't think they're doing the breed any favors by doing so.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-20-2006, 10:09 AM
LizzieCollie's Avatar
LizzieCollie LizzieCollie is offline
Collie Crazy
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 291
Default

Well thats what the AKC has done to dogs. Many of them do look very pretty, it doesnt make them good working dogs but you cannot deny that a great deal are better looking than their working counterparts (Like Collies and BC's)

There are some breeds that the AKC has really messed up conformation wise (i.e. FAT Labs and poorly bred GSD's) but hey the AKC is like that. They strive for good pedigrees and good looks not what the dog can actually do. I still think shes a beautiful looking BC. Not a worker, but still beautiful.

Alot of people are only thinking about looks and pedigree. I know a lady who a few years back had the #1 GSD in Puerto Rico which was a huge achievment since that GSD was female.
The owner doesnt show anymore and now she has a white GSD and a black and tan female who is agressive and death. She admitted to me that she actually thought of breeding the agressive girl simply because she 'had a nice pedigree' Go Figure
__________________
Julitza
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:13 PM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site