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  #31  
Old 07-21-2006, 01:40 PM
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shelties that are bred for the conformation ring, can still compete in herding, agility and obediance, while researching kennels, i've noticed alot of kennels have bred there show stock to some of the herding dogs further back in the lines to create more of a drive in their dogs.
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  #32  
Old 07-21-2006, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by LizzieCollie
Well thats what the AKC has done to dogs. Many of them do look very pretty, it doesnt make them good working dogs but you cannot deny that a great deal are better looking than their working counterparts (Like Collies and BC's)

Actually, I can easily deny that over-sized, overly coated, out of condition, dull witted, no instinct Collies and BCs are better looking than their working counterparts. My dogs are from working lines, yet compete in conformation along with performance events, which is what I think you should strive for in a breeding program, especially with a herding or sporting dog.
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  #33  
Old 07-21-2006, 05:47 PM
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Sure it may be an ego thing, but as I see it, BC's were maintained as a breed, a very intelligent, working, distinguishable breed, maintained by their parent club, and well respected among the canine world. Then a few years ago the AKC got involved. Why would the BC people feel they need them?? Especially considering the track record of working dogs in the AKC??

Do I blame the working people from rejecting anything to do with the AKC. Whenever a working dog get its acceptance by the AKC, its only a matter of time before they are nothing but shells of what they used to be. If were working BC's I wouldn't look for a dog to have AKC anything involved in its history.

As I said before, people fell in love with BC's because they are smart, energetic, and loyal, then they get shown in AKC show rings and they're described to the public and people fall in love with that image, then the public gets hold and decides that they're too much dog and they get watered down. But to them they still own a BC, no they don't they own a shell of what used to be a BC, or dobe, or GSD. WHo cares if ego is involved, i still say, if you don't want a dog that works, don't F'in get one. and yes, i have the crazy off the wall never ending drive dogs living in my house with small animals that like to run (cats) and neighborhood children over often. So those "crazy" dogs can be trained and lived with quite harmoniously even in small apts in the city, i've done it. Its a lame freakin excuse to water down a breed, how bout just admit you're too lazy and should get a fish instead.
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  #34  
Old 07-21-2006, 07:25 PM
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AKC did not "get involved".

You must solicit the AKC to get a breed organized.

The Border Collie had been languishing in the Miscellaneous Class for many years, and they were told to make doody or get off the pot.
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  #35  
Old 07-21-2006, 07:34 PM
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Then a few years ago the AKC got involved. Why would the BC people feel they need them??
You do realize that the AKC doesn't just randomly approach breed clubs and go "hey there- you look as if you'd enjoy being part of America's biggest and best-known purebred canine registry, care to join?"

The AKC didn't just "get involved." Some (notice I said *some*) BC people *asked* them to. BREED CLUBS must petition AKC for acceptance. They must show that they have a large enough representation in the country to maintain lines, and have a closed studbook. In short, a fairly large number of people *already in the breed* must be actively pursuing AKC recognition. So really it does come down to your question, why WOULD the BC people think they needed AKC recognition?

I have no doubts that a great deal of people in BCs *didn't* want it, and I can understand why. Breeds that are accepted into the AKC get a lot more public recognition than those that aren't, and this can often spell disaster when BYBs or people who care more about winning than the breed get involved. But to blame a registry which does nothing but approve breeds for recognition using their OWN breed standards, is throwing the blame in the wrong direction.

The fact of the matter is, there were enough people in BCs in this country that WANTED to be part of the AKC that the breed got accepted. I can point out several breeds that will most likely NEVER get accepted, purely because anyone who shows interest in getting the breed into AKC never gets a dog! These breeds are kept under wraps and guarded very carefully by those who breed them.

Still, it's not like as soon as your breed gets accepted to the AKC you are automatically informed that you must now become a sell-out. Once again- what happens to your breed once it's accepted is entirely up to those who breed it. Unfortunately for BCs, enough people who weren't so interested in the breed as a whole, so much as they were interested in the possibility of creating something that could be come a flashy winner got involved. And viola- breed split.

While popularity *is* rising in Shibas, I think at least up to this point we've done a heck of a great job scaring people away from this breed.
We don't believe in "watering down" Shibas anymore than you believe in "watering down" BCs. If people aren't interested in owning an animal that would make Satan cry, well then guess what? They don't get a Shiba! We take it as a point of pride that most people would rather get dragged behind a Mack truck by their toes than own one of these guys. I've yet to see anyone in Shibas say, "you know...lets start breeding Shibas with an easier temperament...I want a dog I can put a UDX on, and then go HIT at the National Obedience Championships with." We're a tight-knit community, and that is a *credit* to the breed. Having the sort of vitriol that I've seen displayed by people on either side of the BC split can only do more harm than good.

I can't say it enough- it's NOT AKC that does this to breeds! It's BREEDERS! There are plenty of breeds out there who seem to do just fine with AKC acceptance, and plenty of people in breeds with splits that are still working their hardest to produce animals that can fulfill both (thanks for the example, Colliewog ). I'm more impressed with these people than I will be with people on EITHER side who say that such a thing cannot or should not be done.

And once again, this *doesn't* mean that I have ANY sort of a problem with dogs that are purely working dogs. I *do* however think that people that maintain programs purely focused on conformation should get involved in *some* other type of dog sport.

EDIT- sorry Red, we posted at about the same time!
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  #36  
Old 07-21-2006, 11:16 PM
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About the AKC getting "involved"... however it is that BC's were accepted, I completely feel the breed was better off as a whole before it was recognized.

That is besides the point though, is it right to breed a dog whose temperament is nearly a 180* from what the breed's real purpose requires?

Would you breed a vicious CKCS? Or a Lab who is afraid of water? Or a Bloodhound who cannot scent? Or an aloof, lazy Shiba Inu? Regardless of how beautifully they were built.You get the point.
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  #37  
Old 07-21-2006, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ihartgonzo
About the AKC getting "involved"... however it is that BC's were accepted, I completely feel the breed was better off as a whole before it was recognized.

That is besides the point though, is it right to breed a dog whose temperament is nearly a 180* from what the breed's real purpose requires?

Would you breed a vicious CKCS? Or a Lab who is afraid of water? Or a Bloodhound who cannot scent? Or an aloof, lazy Shiba Inu? Regardless of how beautifully they were built.You get the point.
The BC was probably better off staying out of AKC, but like the others said, the AKC didn't pull them in. A group of people had to form a parent club, write a standard, etc. and petition to become AKC registered. The breeders are the ones that are ruining the breed - losing all natural instincts in pursuit of physical perfection. (Supermodels if you will - Divas with no worldly experience).

No, you shouldn't breed dogs with those flaws, but it happens every day. It's human nature that is ruining these breeds. Judges are influenced by fads (not all but most) and let's say that if all of the Collie bitches in the ring are 65 lbs or over, then my 52 lb bitch looks out of place and doesn't win. But they are both correct by the standard. If I want to fit in, then I would breed to the same studs they are, breed bigger dogs and possibly have a chance at winning big in conformation. Instead, I maintain lithe active dogs (in the standard!) and they can herd, guard, and think (scary smart dogs)! So we don't always win, but when I look my dog in the eyes, there is someone home.
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  #38  
Old 07-22-2006, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
That is besides the point though, is it right to breed a dog whose temperament is nearly a 180* from what the breed's real purpose requires?

Would you breed a vicious CKCS? Or a Lab who is afraid of water? Or a Bloodhound who cannot scent? Or an aloof, lazy Shiba Inu? Regardless of how beautifully they were built.You get the point.
Of course I wouldn't breed any of these. (Except for the "aloof" Shiba- they're absolutely *supposed* to be aloof ). But that was the whole point I've been trying to get across this entire time. You *can* be accepted by the AKC and STILL breed correct dogs. It isn't a mutually exclusive endeavor. I show in the AKC and my bitch is correct. She isn't a showy or flashy mover. She doesn't shower the judge with kisses or waggle, bark, or jump in the ring. She isn't *dripping* in coat. She isn't Irish Setter red, she's flame orange. And yeah, sometimes this puts us at a disadvantage, but the people who know what they're doing recognize that she's true to standard, and has something to offer.

And as for the dog in question- I wouldn't breed her either- her temperament doesn't seem to fit the BC standard whatsoever. It's about looking at the entire package- and that's something I've rallied for since the beginning.
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  #39  
Old 07-22-2006, 01:05 AM
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Ok, I agree then, Tempura. I think I'm going to talk to the breeder in question tomorrow morning... nicely talk. I wanted to print out some stuff from a BC community, but I might just talk to her about it, and if she's interested, THEN print it out or e-mail her the link. Hopefully I don't get bvtched out. With this lady, that is a real possibility!

Sorry. Aloof was the wrong word. I was trying to get at a word that means "not attentive", or "content with whatever"... my vocabulary blows.
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  #40  
Old 07-22-2006, 01:22 AM
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LOL- no problem Gonzo- the occupational hazards of living with an English major twin include turning into a freak over vocabulary.

Good luck with the talk- and I *would* prepare to get a less than stellar response. We all know that our dogs are our "babies," and even if we know their faults, we don't want anyone else to point them out!!

At any rate, it's good to see so many people truly committed to preserving the BC as it was intended to be. And if it's a dog that can work all week and hit the conformation ring on the weekend...well then I'll be even more ecstatic.
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