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  #21  
Old 07-20-2006, 04:53 PM
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I completely agree that judges should be faulted for putting up dogs that do not fit the standard- if you read my previous response, I said as much. We often have a problem in Shibas with people getting "grandfathered in" to judge our breed, meaning group judges often don't understand the finer points. They don't realize, for example, that a flashy, super-friendly animal may be a great show dog, but not exactly a fantastic representative of true Shiba temperament.

But this is the case in EVERY breed. It's unrealistic to expect a judge to know every breed as well as his/her own (although judges like Annie Clark and Pat Trotter are superlative examples). It's just another reminder that we must find creative ways of living in an imperfect world. When it comes down to it the onus will ALWAYS fall on the people breeding the dogs. Did they not choose, after all, to become *stewards* of the breed? These are the people who drew up the standards, the very same who are holding (hopefully!) breed-type workshops, and national specialties. They should know their own breed better than anyone else.

Stewardship implies protection- protection *especially* from fads. So what if you lose under a few all-breed judges here and there? If you are breeding TO THE STANDARD you SHOULD be winning under breeder-judges (the ones who REALLY matter). And if breeder judges are putting up the wrong dogs...well then, you REALLY have a problem.

But once again- AKC is a registry PERIOD. I'm not really sure how to explain this any better, but it's a little bit like blaming God for the ill effects of choices you make with your own free will. AKC is not here to hold our hands, or slap them when we go astray- it is up to US to realize this.

It is what breeders as a whole decide to do once their breed gets ACCEPTED by the AKC that choose the destiny of a breed. You cannot fault a registry for the mistakes that breeders whose love for winning outweighs a love for their own breed.

Casablanca makes a good point- requiring some sort of working title for a dog before it competes in conformation would be the most effective way to eliminate such a problem. (And I agree, the working breeders who ignore everything but drive are just as bad as the conformation breeders who ignore everything but looks).

Unfortunately, this will probably never happen. The logistics of it (what titles are acceptable? How do you decide what kind of a working-title is acceptable for a Pekingese? What do you do with breeds whose original function is so esoteric there isn't a way to test it anymore?), make it easier on a whole (and lets face it, more lucrative), to allow people to CHOOSE whether or not they put titles on both ends of a dog's name. It all comes down to the free will thing again. The ability to change your breed for the good or for the bad lies in your own hands. To lay the blame on AKC is a cop-out.
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  #22  
Old 07-20-2006, 05:09 PM
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Ahhh Gonzo- just read your reply.

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I do not blame the AKC completely - I am mostly refering to "AKC breeders" of the Border Collie.
This is EXACTLY what I have been trying to get at all along- it is not the AKC, but the breeders who produce incorrect dogs to register with it, that are to blame. These people got into this breed (presumably) because they liked it in its entirety, so it boggles my mind that a breed split should ever occur. I definitely feel for people in Sibes, BCs, Labs, Springers (the list goes on and on), in a perfect world, people would love a breed for more than just its looks.

However, I DO think it is silly that the ABCA rejects the papers of a BC that obtains an AKC championship. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater! So I am to believe then that it is quite possible that an animal with outstanding herding capability, perhaps even a dog that was winning ABCA herding trials and working on a farm, would then be rejected after becoming a champion? That seems so counterintuitive to their whole stance- if they are primarily concerned with working function, then why should they care that a dog becomes a champion if it has already proved itself a capable worker?

Things like that guarantee that a breed split will remain. How sad that two sides that *love* a breed so much cannot see beyond their own anger with one another to find a common solution.
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  #23  
Old 07-20-2006, 05:32 PM
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It's called "ego," TT
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  #24  
Old 07-20-2006, 06:38 PM
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"The ABCA is a working stockdog registry and believes that breeding for conformation standards rather than working ability is detrimental to the health and working ability of the Border Collie. Consequently dogs or bitches which have been named a "Conformation Champion" by a conformation registry are not eligible for ABCA registration, even if they otherwise meet the requirements of for registration. The ABCA will de-register any ABCA registered dog or bitch should it be named a "Conformation Champion" after January 1, 2004, and will not register the offspring of any dog or bitch named a "Conformation Champion" after that date."

Taking straight for the website... I feel I explained the reasoning in prior posts. Border Collies have been maintained based on working style & well-planned out breeding alone, many many years before the AKC accepted them in 1995. BC's are a breed distinguished based on working style, so why should conformation bea deciding factor in the breedability of these dogs? BC's are not even close to Shiba's, although I definitely understand your reasoning around Shiba Inu showing.
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  #25  
Old 07-20-2006, 08:07 PM
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A Border Collie is defined to me, first and foremost, by behavior. I have no problem accepting that a downright ugly dog (according to the show ring, at least) is a purebred Border Collie if it acts like one.

Someone stated that it was good to get a laid-back BC once in a while. No, it isn't. That's not what the breed is about. Borders are supposed to be hardworking and intense, not lazy and calm.

This basically boils down to a lady breeding a dog with an incorrect temperament. Yes, I feel that is wrong. Would this woman say it was okay if there was a person breeding a protection dog that hid from intruders?

As for breeding solely for working ability, I say ABSOLUTELY YES to this if every dog being bred is a working dog. Meaning, it goes out and works on a daily basis. Not just a dog from working lines that goes out and eyes stock on occasion. If a dog can work hard every day, pass its health tests, and not fall apart after running 50 miles in a day, this proves that the dog is structurally sound. As opposed to showing, where people can only say that the dog LOOKS structurally sound.

My problem here comes in when people breed dogs that are "working dogs" but only see a sheep once a week, or are simply pets or kennel dogs unproven working ability. Breeding unproven dogs is going to mess up the breed too.
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  #26  
Old 07-20-2006, 08:09 PM
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First off, I ABSOLUTELY KNOW that BCs and Shibas are not even remotely similar. Shibas are bred to be incredibly independent hunters- they look for instructions from no one. To ask for instructions while you're tailing a bear or a wild boar is to simultaneously ask for a death sentence. Shibas that hunt boar in Japan are not "taught" how to hunt by people- they are simply let loose with the pack at an appropriate age, and learn from older dogs during the hunt. My dogs have proved their prowess as hunters time and time again. I've watched Kimi take birds out of the air, and deposit countless "presents" (AKA things she has killed) upon my doorstep. Both my dogs have successful boar hunters in their pedigrees just 2 generations back. Their breeder owns at least one boar hunter currently. Both of my dogs are accomplished in agility as well. Nevertheless- they are still show dogs. You don't have to exclude working ability to be a great showdog. It CAN be done. We in Shibas do not take the original purpose of our breed, or it's drive any less seriously than people in other breeds. While there aren't a whole lot of Japanese wild boar in the US (or any, as far as I know), I will nevertheless take the working ability of dogs in my future breeding program as seriously as I take the conformation aspect. (As I am in college, I have yet to start a breeding program in earnest). Tracking and agility will be the main focus- as I feel these would most closely test the working traits of a Shiba.

And I don't know, it may seem dense to some, but I still believe that it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to de-register a dog AFTER it has already proved it's ability as an effective working animal, and THEN goes and obtains a conformation championship. How does that devalue anything the dog has done previously? Does working ability magically evaporate after a dog trots around in a circle and gets handed a ribbon? I'm going to guess that it doesn't. I can understand them not allowing dogs that obtain a conformation title PRIOR to proving their ability as a stockdog...but the other way around seems just a bit loopy.

I've seen several breeders in Australian Cattledogs that have incredible working stockdogs (not just animals that compete, but those that are active components in running daily life on a ranch), and they are still great showdogs! How have these people done it? And why can't the BC people do it? I have a feeling that Renee is right...maybe it all really does come down to ego. (On *both* sides of the issue- I have no greater feelings for those that show than those that work. Mostly, I find breed splits in general sad and unecessary).
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Last edited by tempura tantrum; 07-20-2006 at 08:20 PM.
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  #27  
Old 07-20-2006, 08:17 PM
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I do definitely agree with Tempura that it is not the AKC or showing in conformation that has "ruined" the Border Collie. The registry, the standard and the act of showing have done nothing to hurt the breed. What hurts is people breeding just to win. People breeding for their own personal glory instead of the breed. It acts nothing like a Border Collie? Who cares? It'll win!

it does come down to ego, on both sides of the split.
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  #28  
Old 07-20-2006, 08:33 PM
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Thank you RD!

What we have to remember with conformation is that the judge can only evaluate what you bring into the ring. If *everyone* started to breed BCs correctly...guess what would be winning? Sure, you can always make the argument that the judges could withhold ribbons if they didn't like what they saw...but lets face it, that doesn't happen often (and there isn't a judge on Earth who would do this with any sort of regularity- it's a great way to make sure you never get judging assignments again).

The changes must come from within the breed itself.

And I must point out that I too have NO problem with dogs that are "just" working dogs. My boyfriend's family has Kelpies to work the cattle that is their livelihood, and I'm pretty sure they would absolutely crack up at the idea of entering a dog show. These dogs work every day, and are essential to the smooth running of the station. I could care less whether or not their tail set is too high or too low, as long as they do their job correctly, and as RD pointed out, can do so hour after hour, day after day. But I too see a ton of people label their dogs as "working dogs," when they are just as RD said- dogs that see sheep every once in awhile. There are crappy breeders on both sides of the spectrum.
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  #29  
Old 07-21-2006, 01:43 AM
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I agree, this dog does not have the proper temperment and therefore should not be bred.

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  #30  
Old 07-21-2006, 01:59 AM
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To me, health certs and a CH title are not enough for any breed except those that only exist as companions. Working dogs should work before being bred, and it should come naturally.
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