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  #11  
Old 07-20-2006, 10:14 AM
whatszmatter
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you could breed a medium drive to high and get good working dogs, but no drive to high drive and you're wasting your time. and BC's are working dogs, they aren't meant to be lap dogs, they aren't meant to be low in drive, if that's what you want, get a lap dog, if you want a BC be ready and be able to work it. It's freaking disgusting when people go and get a BC or GSD or Malor some terrier that have great working drives and temperment and they don't want that, so they find it fit to breed a shell of what a dog is supposed to be because that's what people want.

So let me get this straight, people want BC's cause they're active fun, smart, loyal, but then they don't want any of the things that make them that??? If you can't handle a porsche, don't drop a 1.9 4 cylinder from the local saturn dealership in one so you can look cool. Just get the saturn.

If this BC doesn't show any intensity, any focus, any "eye" then make it a pet, its not to be bred.
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  #12  
Old 07-20-2006, 10:46 AM
casablanca1 casablanca1 is offline
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Belle is super mild-mannered and a dog that could be trusted with about anything, but I have never seen an ounce of intensity in her. She's stocky & tall (about 15 lbs larger than my male BC), fluffy, short-muzzled, & tires after a few runs. Besides that, she just does not care about working either way... and she's super slow! I mean, she's a wonderful family dog, but literally a black & white Golden Retriever! I have never seen her actually focus on the ball, her owner, other dogs, n o t h i n g. This dog basically bumbles around, like "Ohhh, a ball", and does not even pick it up or bring it back half the time. When I met her, I thought she may be a senior dog, but she isn't even 2 years old!

I can't help thinking that you might be overly critical of this dog. She clearly isn't a typical BC, but she's clearly a suitable family pet, so I don't think it's immoral to breed her. I save the morality clause for gross physical or temperament problems. Assuming her sedate manner is entirely temperament and has no physical cause (I'm a little suspicious of a 2-year-old of any breed being that tired), she shouldn't be bred to a similarly quiet dog, but to one with a little more spark.

I'm growing slowly more critical of the idea that certain breeds must be kept pure working types. There's something a bit unpleasant about the attitude that there are a few breeds which are, it's implied, so far beyond their working origins that they're suitable as family pets - ie, they're sluggards without much drive. Maybe I've just met too many people who justify their handling or their dogs' behavior with the 'that's what they're meant to do.' Which is great if you live in Idaho, I suppose, but a lot of them are living in apartment buildings where their 'natural' breed is going bonkers trying to fulfill his/her destiny to herd, guard, etc. A lot of breeds have split into working/pet factions because of that, and this woman with Belle seems to be doing that. I don't really see the problem with it. There are a lot more potential homes for a quiet dog who 'can be trusted with about anything' than there are for high-drive working dogs who live to run.

And yes, I know people usually shouldn't choose a BC if they live in a 1-bedroom, but considering how it's usually clear when you speak to dog people that they consider working and show dogs to be superior - more interesting, more successful, more fun - than 'pet quality dogs, it's not surprising that a lot of newcomers screw up their choice.
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  #13  
Old 07-20-2006, 10:55 AM
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With rescues and humane societies chalk full of border collies, bc pups and bc crosses I think potential breeders need to have a really great reason to breed and 'to make good family pets' that look like border collies doesn't do it for me. I think the last stat I heard about number of dogs being euthanised in shelters in the US was an average of 8-10 million per year. LOTS of those are border collies.
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  #14  
Old 07-20-2006, 12:03 PM
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Sounds like they do plan to breed . I sure never took my females in heat anywhere !
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  #15  
Old 07-20-2006, 12:35 PM
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"Watering down" a breed gets a big thumbs down from me. Border Collies have that work/show split, as do Siberians. If someone wants a low-drive dog, they should choose a different breed instead of trying to breed a working dog with low drive or no drive.

And no, this doesn't make me consider her a BYB. Her dog is proven in some respects and health tested. I just don't feel what she's doing is in the best interest of the breed.

Why doesn't she wait and breed that working BC?
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  #16  
Old 07-20-2006, 12:50 PM
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I'd like to point one thing out really quickly:

It is NOT the AKC that waters down/ruins breeds. The AKC is a registry, period. It is BREEDERS who water down and ruin breeds. If AKC registered BCs are low-drive and resemble Australian Shepherds more than their own breed, it is only because BC breeders are breeding those dogs and winning with them.

The stewardship of a breed falls to those who breed it. Each breed's national breed club is responsible for the standard. If the breed is going in the wrong direction, the only people who can be blamed are the people breeding them (and the judges who don't know enough about the standard to put them up).

In Shibas we have been quite fortunate. I can honestly say that in the past 15 years, American bred animal have only improved. Japanese judges are far more impressed with what American breeders are turning out. Our dogs are definitely more typey. While there are few (okay NO) opportunities to hunt Japanese wild boar in the US, many of the imports we bring in have proven themselves quite capable. Sure, this is a non-sporting breed, but these dogs certainly don't think so! My Shibas are capable of doing long-distance runs with me, and both are good at agility.

It is up to breeders and breeders alone to put the emphasis on what is important in their breed. It is a shame when winning in conformation becomes the ONLY concern, but once again, that is the fault of individual breeders, and NOT the registry they choose.
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  #17  
Old 07-20-2006, 12:54 PM
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AKC vs The Border Collie: http://www.bordercollie.org/akc.html
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  #18  
Old 07-20-2006, 01:17 PM
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It is in a big part the AKC's fault. The judge should know enough about the standard to properly judge them, its their job! They should not let out of standard dogs win. If the standard calls for a dog of certain height or weight why are the judges choosing dogs that are 10-15 pounds overweight, 2-3 inches to tall?!?

If the AKC did not applaud these type of faults the breeders would not be breeding dogs that are out of the standard (the original standard, not the modified 2006 standard)
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  #19  
Old 07-20-2006, 01:40 PM
casablanca1 casablanca1 is offline
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Basically, the only way to keep any breed true to its origins is for the main authority over the purebred dog world (the AKC in the US) to make conformation titles unavailable to dogs who can't pass working tests. It's a simple solution that neither the working or the show people will embrace because it requires compromise. Because it's not just the show people being irresponsible and breeding monsters. Yes, the show people turned the Cocker into a grooming nightmare, but the working people are the ones who have created dogs so high on drive that they will work themselves to death if they're not physically stopped. Both are disturbing examples of humans heightening non-essential, frivolous traits and creating animals that suffer as a result.
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  #20  
Old 07-20-2006, 04:42 PM
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Casablanca, just look at it this way... a Border Collie's signature for the many centuries it has been in existance was it's working style - it's eye. Not a black & white coat. Not anything to do with appearance, at all. It has existed all this time as a fairly well-known and well-preserved breed without conformation showing. BC's only became an accepted AKC breed in 1995; before that, the breed was preserved in skill & appearance through it's work. When you're out looking for a doctor, do you check their beauty pageant history as a priority? I am not completely against conformation... not at all. But if the dog cannot work like a BC, it might as well be a St. Bernard!

I don't feel I am being critical of Belle & her owner. I am involved in BC rescue... and I've fostered a puppy that was "show" style, and I've helped with plenty of working BC's as well. Of course he was a sweet little boy, and I still miss him. He's a wonderful family dog now. However, there are countless breeds out there who are content as lazy, aloof family dogs, so why add more BC's to a country already over-flowing with unwanted dogs if their purpose is pet? It hurts me so much to see Border Collies being morphed into a "pet". Yes, they make wonderful pets for a special kind of person. Gonzo is the best pet dog we've ever had, way more sweet/agreeable/affectionate than our previous Cocker Spaniel & Bichon, and way more entertaining and fun than any dog I've met... but, not everyone has hours every day to dedicate to training & exercising their dogs. If some one "living in an apartment" does not put in the effort to properly exercise a Border Collie & prefers a lazy, easy, aloof dog, get an English Bulldog! I LIKE that this breed doesn't rub up against every stranger in sight, I LIKE that owning one requires you to get out and do things with it, I LIKE that they are a challenge & can be mentally exhausting but they pay you back with endless loyalty & love. If they were made into the perfect average family's "pet" - an aloof, everything-loving, low-activity, ho-hum breed, I and all of the other real BC lovers would have nothing to love about these dogs anymore.

I definitely agree with the Porsche/Saturn analogy =P as well as Summit! I absolutely feel for Sibe people as well.

Tempura, I do not blame the AKC completely - I am mostly refering to "AKC breeders" of the Border Collie. As far as the ABCA's opinion on showing, an ABCA registered Border Collie's papers are rejected if the dog earns an AKC CH... enough said. Other than that, the AKC *should* require a working title from working breeds before they can compete in conformation, most definitely. If not, I'd rather they went the way of the Canadian Kennel Club and did not ever accept the breed to begin with. The breed club is awesome and handles the breedings well. I have nothing against showing BC's to prove that the dog conforms to the standard, but if the dog is not working on a daily basis or trialing, it has no business being shown. IMO.
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