Surprising

Originally Posted by wolfsoul

I don't look at the dog --- I look at what the dog produces. Often times, a not-so-nice looking dog will produce gorgeous puppies. You don't breed a dog, you breed a dog's lines.

A wise breeder will be looking at every aspect before a breeding.

Most of the time a dog is not going to produce (phenotypically) what it does not have.

Line breeding can increase your chances of uniformity in a litter, but for me, you must look at the lines, yes, but the actual dogs are the most important aspect of the equation for me.

[stevinski]

I don't look at the dog --- I look at what the dog produces. Often times, a not-so-nice looking dog will produce gorgeous puppies. You don't breed a dog, you breed a dog's lines.

i wouldnt breed a poor example of the breed, just because it had good lines.

and you wouldnt be able to title a poor example of the breed, so i wouldnt breed the dog anyway

[OutlineACDs]

The key word in your post was "Sheltie" a friend of mine shows shelties. And has been showing for a good 6 years. She STILL hasn't finished a dog yet. Her bitch is lacking two single points in AKC. All of her dogs have at least ONE Ch. titled parent, and MANY Ch's in the second third and fourth generations etc. It is HARDER to finish certain breeds of dogs. Especially one as popular as shelties. It takes 4 bitches to make ONE point, where in most breeds it takes only 2. If Im not mistaken, in this area it takes 12-14 to make two points and close to 20 to make a 3pt major. A lot of sheltie breeders will breed a bitch without a Ch. title and then go back and finish them later because lets face it, my friends bitch is 6 and still lacks two points. If you wait that long to breed, you would never have a litter.

[tempura tantrum]

That's another good point, Outline.

Shelties *are* a very competitive breed. Add to that the trials and tribulations of keeping one in coat (especially bitches who come into their heat cycles), and you've got a dog that's very hard to finish. This is one of those breeds where all the stars need to align for you to finish the dog. I come from a double-coated breed, and I know that my guys *always* seem to blow coat right before our next show. I can't even imagine what it would be like in Shelties! I know of a few people from other boards that are in Shelties, and they have mentioned that their dogs (who come from slow-to mature lines), won't be *truly* competitive until they are 3-5 years of age. So as Outline said, you're probably seeing fewer champions than you would expect due to this.

Keep us updated on your puppy search- it's always fun to browse the photos!

[stevinski]

It takes 4 bitches to make ONE point, where in most breeds it takes only 2.

can you explain this too me please, i dont quite understand.

If Im not mistaken, in this area it takes 12-14 to make two points and close to 20 to make a 3pt major

can you explain this too me too please cause i dont understand this either

A lot of sheltie breeders will breed a bitch without a Ch.

you can breed a bitch without there CH but some breeders choose to wait, its not uncommon for bitches to die while giving birth or something to happen so the bitch would have to be spayed, etc.
Many responsible breeders dont take this chance as if anything did happen, they would have put all that time and money into the dog for her to be spayed or die without achieving her CH

Keep us updated on your puppy search- it's always fun to browse the photos!

i will definetly keep you guys informed, it will probably be another year before i really settle for a kennel as i am doin way to much research into them then i probably need to,
it will be much longer before i probably actually get the puppy, but i dont mind waiting because i want to get it right

[tempura tantrum]

Stevinski- am I correct in saying that you're in the UK?

What she's referring to is the AKC's point system. Depending on the popularity of a given breed in different parts of the country, you may have to beat more or less representatives of your breed to make a "major." In the AKC you need 15 points total to win a championship. Anywhere from 3-5 points is considered a "major" (meaning you beat a sizeable amount of dogs), and you need two majors under two different judges in order to fulfill all the requirements.

As a rule, dogs generally need more animals in competition than bitches to make a major.

Shibas are quite popular in the the northwest, so my girl Kimi must beat more bitches than say, a Shiba in the midwest. Conversely, it takes an *obscene* number of dogs to make a major in Labradors just about ANYWHERE because they're an incredibly popular breed all over the country.

I don't believe the UK has the same sort of system (and please excuse my mistake if you are not in fact based there )

[stevinski]

you are correct i am based in the uk, i was wondering what you meant lol

thanks for explaining things!

[OutlineACDs]

Originally Posted by stevinski

you can breed a bitch without there CH but some breeders choose to wait, its not uncommon for bitches to die while giving birth or something to happen so the bitch would have to be spayed, etc.
Many responsible breeders dont take this chance as if anything did happen, they would have put all that time and money into the dog for her to be spayed or die without achieving her CH

Its not the dying part you really have to worry about. Although it is always a possiblity with breeding. Breeding a maiden bitch when they are 6 years old is difficult. They are less fertile. I was going to spay my bitch if she did not take on the last breeding because she is 4 (will be 5 in September) and she was getting too old to be having her first litter. If she had already had a successful litter as a younger dog I wouldn't have been worried, but as the years go by it is harder and harder to breed a maiden bitch without difficulty. As it was my bitch did end up losing one puppy and having a c-section.