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Old 07-06-2006, 11:05 PM
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Default Must be Titled

I have been thinking about this, lately. Why do people insist that a dog must have titles to be bred. Many dogs are exellent workers but do not have titles. For example, most police dogs are not titled, but are AMAZING working dogs. Hondo's father has NO titled what-so-ever, because he is too busy finding people. Why do people insist on having your dog titled? Just wondering.
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Old 07-06-2006, 11:18 PM
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For most dogs and breeds having titles is the only way to prove breed worthiness.
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Old 07-06-2006, 11:35 PM
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To me . breeding 40 years ago , it was more important to have good backgrounds and health checking. Today, I do feel that breeders really have to be checked out as to RESPONSIBLE breeding. There are so many more people owning dogs..If you want to go with these breedings.. at least get health checks for a pet quality dog. If wanting a show possibility ... you have to go all the way with AKC recognized dogs.
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Old 07-07-2006, 12:55 AM
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Reputable breeders breed untitled dogs all the time. They may very well be great producers of what they are looking for in thier line.
Only the breeders involved could speculate on that though.
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Old 07-07-2006, 01:23 AM
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Titles on individual dogs don't really mean anything to me. Visa doesn't have her championship -- however, she could easily get it. That right there tells me that just because a dog doesn't have a title, doesn't mean it couldn't get it. However, when looking for a reputable breeder, if none of the dogs are titled, that tells me something right there. Breeding an untitled dog I don't mind -- it's when none of your breeding dogs are titled. It tells me that your dogs are just poor workers, or maybe you aren't enough "into dogs." I think a good breeder is involved.

I'm browsing potential studs for Visa's third litter right now, and to be honest I am looking at titles. Less working titles usually means a lower drive dog (she can only be bred to low drive dogs). A CGN or CGC shows a potentially stable dog. An obedience title might show a handler-focused dog. Championships don't mean anything to me -- a championship is nothing for a Belgian. Almost any Belgian can be a champion. A BIS or BISS does speak to me, however. I wouldn't mind breeding to a non-champion, but I would require the stud to be atleast pointed so that I know it can atleast stand for a judge. I can see what I like in pictures, I don't need a championship to tell me if the dog looks nice, and I have several contacts who can look at the dog. But what is more important to me than titles, MUCH more importantly, is that the dog is suited to my bitch. I could breed Visa to the most titled dog out there, but I won't. I look for a dog that is low-drive, friendly, NOT SHY OR AGGRESSIVE, happy, calm, with health clearances, and a refined head.

What people really need to do is talk to people that have met the breeder and/or the dogs. I personally know many breeders who have dogs with several titles that I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole. I know breeders who are abusive to their dogs (and client dogs), who have puppies born with cleft palates and let them starve to death, breeders who have the most ugly dogs win championships because they pin their dogs against one another, who encourage irresponsible ownership, breeders producing shy dogs, breeders whose pups end up in shelters, breeders who have 8 litters a year without enough homes, etc. All of these breeders have dogs with several titles. Titles don't say much. You need to talk to people who know the breeder and know the dogs.
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Old 07-07-2006, 01:36 AM
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I totally agree with Jordan on this. Titles ARE a great thing, but they aren't everything. As far as herding dogs go, I'd much prefer a dog that works everyday & works well than a dog who is trialed occasionally, BUT I would still love to get a puppy from Herding Champion parents. Titles basically prove that the dog can perform, and is given recognition as performing at a high level. There is so much that breeders can say to exaggerate their breeding dogs abilities (such as "you should've seen my Border Collie bitch work those sheep in that field that one time, she ran around them with no training." and "you should see my Lab dog fetch a ball.")... their boasting does not necessarily mean that their dog is worth breeding and is an exceptional working dog. Titles should definitely be weighed with one-on-one observations of the parents working, which I think EVERYONE should do if it all possible. In general, though, I feel that anyone who really has an excellent working/show dog will at least prove their dog as competent in competition.
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Old 07-07-2006, 02:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ihartgonzo
I totally agree with Jordan on this. Titles ARE a great thing, but they aren't everything. As far as herding dogs go, I'd much prefer a dog that works everyday & works well than a dog who is trialed occasionally, BUT I would still love to get a puppy from Herding Champion parents. Titles basically prove that the dog can perform, and is given recognition as performing at a high level. There is so much that breeders can say to exaggerate their breeding dogs abilities (such as "you should've seen my Border Collie bitch work those sheep in that field that one time, she ran around them with no training." and "you should see my Lab dog fetch a ball.")... their boasting does not necessarily mean that their dog is worth breeding and is an exceptional working dog. Titles should definitely be weighed with one-on-one observations of the parents working, which I think EVERYONE should do if it all possible. In general, though, I feel that anyone who really has an excellent working/show dog will at least prove their dog as competent in competition.
LOL @ my lab can fetch a ball! Someone I know of thinks thats quite an accomplishment! Let me see a duck or bird in its mouth then were talking!
(and not one all chewed up either)
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Old 07-07-2006, 04:25 AM
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For real though, Momof7!!! I have heard that a lot, and I'm not even involved in Labs like you are. My favorite, which I hear way too much, is people bragging about their Border Collies nipping at kids and people. That neurotic behavior is such an accomplishment for the breed totally breeding-worthy.
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Old 07-07-2006, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Titles on individual dogs don't really mean anything to me. Visa doesn't have her championship -- however, she could easily get it. That right there tells me that just because a dog doesn't have a title, doesn't mean it couldn't get it. However, when looking for a reputable breeder, if none of the dogs are titled, that tells me something right there. Breeding an untitled dog I don't mind -- it's when none of your breeding dogs are titled. It tells me that your dogs are just poor workers, or maybe you aren't enough "into dogs." I think a good breeder is involved.
titles prove this, and i would only ever buy my future show prospect from a litter thats parents have titles, because just because the breeder says she could get it isnt good enough, its the proof that matters to an expecting buyer and to be honest i wouldnt buy from anyone who says their dog can get there championship, because i no that they arent as dedicated to their dogs as someone who has taken the time to title their dogs.
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Old 07-07-2006, 07:37 AM
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I personally don't care much if my dogs have a nose too long or their back isn't just bent the right way... but I think health testing is important. At this time though, I don't see the point of breeding just to breed... which is the case of people who don't show... IMO. You can't better the breed if you can't even prove your dogs are a good specimen on the breed. But I don't think it's required for all dogs to be champions, just one of the parents is fine to me - if you find the perfect dog to breed with your champion and he/she wasn't showed, I don't see it as such a big deal... providing you know enough about the breed yourself.
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