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  #11  
Old 07-28-2006, 05:12 AM
Dragoneyes Dragoneyes is offline
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Hehehe

The American version of the Shiba and Japanese version seem to be very different in build and attitude.

Have you looked into an Akita, they really are wonderful dogs my neighbor has one and its nothing but a huge teddy bear.
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  #12  
Old 07-28-2006, 05:22 AM
mozza mozza is offline
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akita are wonderful dogs but a lot of hard work...i hav two and they take up a lot of time and you most do a lot of reading about the 1st plz as i dont what to hav to see more akita in rescue site!!!! if you do what a akita would you think about rescuein one
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  #13  
Old 07-28-2006, 01:32 PM
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tempura tantrum tempura tantrum is offline
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Quote:
The American version of the Shiba and Japanese version seem to be very different in build and attitude.
This is a difference you might be perceiving due to the fact that the breed is fairly young in the U.S. We have only recently been getting imports that could be considered competitive on Japanese turf (the Japanese are notoriously hard to convince to part with their nicest specimens)- but the results have been amazing. In the early years people were importing animals that could not have been considered typey- they were mostly pets returning home with military families, and a far cry from breeding quality. In addition, the Japanese standard was interpreted incorrectly at first. The NIPPO standard is written in a poetic style that describes ALL the native Japanese breeds. It was assumed that one would be able to tell which "rules" applied to which breeds without any need of explanation. This is why you'll notice by doing some research that we have two white American Shiba champions. They will be the only ones in history, as we realized our mistake in interpreting the standard (white applies to Akitas and Kishu, but not Shibas), and rectified it. It is now a disqualification in American (as well as Japanese) show rings.

See if you can find some of the San Jo, Kumi, or HiTorq dogs. By using outstanding imports like Boku, Taro (top-producing Shiba stud of all time), LeeRoy (top Shiba all systems last year), Fumi, Chaka (JKCs top Shiba of all time, and a bitch at that), and Joni Morningstar's lovely import boys Kojirou and Musashi (both NIPPO champions), American programs have made huge strides.

As far as attitude- a lot of this is due to the differences in how our two countries show dogs. NIPPO presentation is very "hands off." The animals are required to stand without the help of bait, hand-stacking, or indeed *any* human assistance. They are expected to do so sometimes for upwards of 45 minutes without "breaking character." Tails may not drop, ears may not droop, and a lagging expression (too much panting), is severly penalized. In addition, most programs in Japan treat the majority of their stock as kennel dogs rather than family pets. There may be one favorite housedog, but the rest of the animals are kenneled for the majority of their lives, and thus are not very well socialized. It's very different than how we raise our puppies inside the house and underfoot.

Boku was a typical Japanese kennel dog. It took several months for my breeder to get him used to being pet at will, get his nails clipped (originally took three people to hold him down), and to allow examination by a judge (NIPPO judges do not put their hands on the dogs). He eventually became dependable enough to be trusted around most people, but she never let her guard down with him.

American show rings require a dog that is used to all of these things- that can deal with being surrounded by throngs of people and dogs, poked and prodded by judges, and come home and be a family pet at the end of the day.

Nevertheless, my bitch has a very typical Japanese temperament. She's not a lovey-dovey "oh cuddle me" kind of dog. She's extraordinarily independent, and would much prefer to do her own thing. People who pet or hug her are met with looks of disgust. She has the air of a displaced empress, LOL.

I'm curious as to whether or not you're really thinking of the differences between Japanese and American *Akitas?* Because there I would really be more inclined to agree with you. Japanese and American Akitas are arguably different breeds now. Japanese Akitas look more like "giant Shibas," where as American Akitas are larger in bone, and tend towards a more "bear-like" appearance. This difference is due to the fact that around WW2 Japanese Akitas were bred with GSDs, and several mastiff breeds in an attempt to make an effective fighting dog. These were the dogs American servicemen brought home with them. After the war, the Japanese realized that this was a far cry from the original hunting dog they had cherished. They designated Akitas as a national treasure of Japan, and began breeding them as they originally had.

Americans, in contrast, kept breeding the big-boned Akitas. This difference is so obvious, that several registries world-wide have elected to split the breed into Akitas (the original Japanese dogs), and Great Japanese Dogs (American Akitas). The AKC has yet to do this...and may never do so. A decision I take issue with.
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Last edited by tempura tantrum; 07-28-2006 at 01:57 PM.
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  #14  
Old 07-29-2006, 09:56 AM
Dragoneyes Dragoneyes is offline
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The Japanese Inu here in Misawa are not what I would call a friendly breed to strangers. I don`t mean that in a bad way just they are very stand offish and can even snap at your friends. They are fiercly loyal to their owners but have been known to bite them at times. That I think is normal for alot of loner style dogs as you have explained before. I also think the American Shibas seem to be a bit more bulky than the Aomori prefecture ones.

Now before I get smashed, I was raised to believe and still do, There are no bad dog breeds just bad owners!


Akitas that I seen in the states back in April at an AKC dog show in Alabama were smaller than the ones here in Northern Japan. I am sure breeding has something to do with this. I also know they are alot of work but are considered to be the most loyal dogs in Japan, and were originally used while hunting bears and other large game.

Tempura if you have some insight on the Shiba as far as training and where to look for working with the dog, any information would be appreciated. A friend of mine got himself a pup of 3 weeks and has never owned a dog before. He knows I own 2 dogs and ask alot of questions but I strongly feel every dog responds differently when being trained.
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  #15  
Old 07-30-2006, 02:16 PM
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Most American Shibas are standoffish towards strangers as well- IF not properly socialized. With breed-bans and the lawsuit happy ways of the US, it is absolutely imperative that we socialize the HECK out of our dogs so that they don't snap at people.

My Shiba bitch is very typical. She could care less about strangers, and doesn't enjoy petting or attention from them. However, I socialized her like CRAZY when she was a pup, and the result is a dog that may not ENJOY attention from strangers, but TOLERATES it. This is part of responsible dog ownership here. If you had a dog that snapped at strangers/friends where I live, you would very quickly have an animal that was euthanized. We simply cannot afford to have unpredictable dogs over here.

You're right about Japanese Akitas originally being used to hunt bear and other large game. The predecessor to the Japanese Akita was called the "Matagi Inu," and was a formidable hunting dog, as well as fiercely loyal. This is the type that Japanese breeders strive to protect. American breeders lean more towards the fighting-style Akitas (although make no mistake, no one fights them anymore), because these were popular during the second World War.

As far as differences in bone between Japanese and American Shibas- you're very likely right. I've talked to several knowledgeable breeders that have seen the NIPPO national in Japan (I can only dream of going right now...the shame of a college-student's budget). What I gathered from them, and reading everything I can get my hands on, is that type *can* differ from prefecture to prefecture throughout Japan, but this doesn't mean one style is any less correct than the other. So our type really depends on where we are managing to obtain imports from. We've had tremendous success with imports from Ryukyu and Gold Typhoon over here. I know that many of the earliest imports came from Dairy Farm.

What I can say in regards to helping your friend with the Shiba pup- traditional training methods do NOT work with this breed. I strongly reccommend that your friend find a puppy kindergarten class and socialize, socialize, socialize. An obedience class that focuses on positive reinforcement techniques would be INCREDIBLY helpful. If your friend notes that the class is big on corrections...find someplace else. Shibas- being a proud, independent breed, will not take kindly to corrections, and they won't forget them either. Clicker training is definitely something to look into (it worked wonders with my bitch).

Your friend is going to need the patience of a saint. That puppy will test him at every opportunity...and the more upset or out of control you get, the more ground the puppy gains. They realize that an alpha never loses control- and if they think you're not up to the job, they will take it upon themselves. This is why I don't tolerate displays of aggression towards guests in my home. My dogs should know intuitively that those I invite inside are welcome. It is I who decides someone is worthy or unworthy, not my dogs. A dog that is well socialized will be able to make this discernment for him or herself. Shibas are naturally suspicious after all.
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  #16  
Old 07-30-2006, 02:32 PM
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One more thing I'd like to add (this is what happens when talking about my heart-breed!)

The snappy Shibas you're talking about are not a result of differences in breeding, but differences in *raising.* I've been to dog shows in the US where I've watched a Shiba snap at a judge (and then win a 5-point major). This Shiba was poorly socialized, but the uninformed judge rewarded it as a "typical Shiba temperament." What a load of B.S. There shouldn't be a breed of dog out there who's typical temperament includes being an unpredictable biter.

Snappy dogs are unsocialized dogs. As I've mentioned before, most of the dogs in Japanese kennels are just that- kennel dogs. They are not handled daily from birth, or raised underfoot, surrounded by children. Just the same- look at any of these breeder's HOUSE DOGS and you will see animals with glorious temperaments. My breeder imported JKC's top-winning Shiba of all time (Tomino Chaka Go Ryukyu Uruma), in order to finish her American championship. Chaka also happened to be her breeder's favorite house dog. She had a sweet temperament that rivaled any American-bred Shiba I've ever met. She would happily roll over to receive a belly-rub from well-trusted friends or guests, and trotted around the house keeping a watchful eye on puppies and visitors.

In contrast- she imported a famous and prolific stud-dog named Boku. Despite his outstanding record as a producer in Japan, he was a kennel-dog, and this was obvious from day one. Teaching him to allow people other than herself to touch Boku took my breeder months. She said that when showing him she never let her guard down- as he regarded judges quite suspiciously. It used to take three people to hold this dog down to clip his nails! And children were simply not allowed to approach Boku. (Of course, he throws puppies with outstanding temperaments, go figure).
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  #17  
Old 08-01-2006, 11:35 AM
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My aunts dog i really shy(hence her name shyanne)and if your dog is shy and little kids are around dont let them run into a room with a lego gun screaming "FBI FREEZE." Shyanne is really protective and scared of almost anything even a plastic bag with the kids in that house and bit my other cousin Eric.
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