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  #21  
Old 04-24-2014, 10:42 PM
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Greenmagick Greenmagick is offline
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Originally Posted by Greenmagick View Post
Does that REALLY mean anything...nope, way too many variables to be considered scientific for sure.

.
Realized the above may have come across as being facetious. I was being sincere in that quote meaning situations like that would not be included in research debating the topic in my head When it happened though it did make me feel a bit validated even though I realize it shouldnt.

My overall thoughts though do lean towards I think we are just skimming the surface in understanding a lot of this and some of the data is off because of that....but I TOTALLY understand why others disagree as well.
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  #22  
Old 04-24-2014, 11:52 PM
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JustaLilBitaLuck JustaLilBitaLuck is offline
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Most of the people I know that have pets with constant health issues aren't doing anything. Period. They're feeding a crap grocery store food, not practicing preventative care (heartworm, flea/tick, deworming, etc), not bringing their pet to a vet when issues do arise, etc.

From what I've experienced, the people (at least that I know/interact with) that are very conscious/aware of their pet's health are always doing what's in their pets best interest, and their pets are healthy and happy. I don't know many people that are "natural-ing" their pets to death - their pets aren't suffering from any health problems that could have been prevented/treated with Western medicine. So maybe I'm just lucky? However, I can see how movements can quickly go towards the extreme, and that's where you have problems. I feel like extremism (in any direction) is not a good thing.

That being said, I definitely have a strong interest in alternative/holistic medicine. I feed my pets good quality food. I believe in raw/homecooked diets. I give them "natural" supplements. I do limited vaccines. My dog sees a chiropractor. My FLUTD cat is being treated solely with a raw diet and supplements, rather than a prescription diet/medications. I specifically sought out a veterinarian who practiced alternative medicine.

On the other hand, I use heartworm preventative, because heartworm is scary stuff and it's prevalent here. I keep my pets up-to-date on rabies and distemper (every three years) because a) it's the law and b) I fully believe in herd immunity. If I had a puppy, I would vaccinate, and I would encourage others to do so. I have a dog on behavioral medications because it makes her (and everyone's) life easier when she's not crazy.

I think both sides definitely have their place - they should be complementary. If it works for you and your dog (and isn't endangering anyone else), by all means, continue. If not...then you need to figure something else out.
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  #23  
Old 04-25-2014, 09:19 AM
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Where do you stand on the issue?

It is actually really starting to scare me some of the things I hear come out of people's mouths. The "holistic dog" movement is taking off full force and people are feeding things and refusing preventative actions based on false premises. And heaven forbid if you disagree, because then you are just a money grubbing, traditional idiot who is going to kill your dog with all of these processed, medicated things.

Did you know you don't need to vaccinate your puppy, because they have maternal antibodies? And that your dog, in its entire life, only needs one set of each vaccine to have antibodies forever?
Did you know that feeding a raw diet prevents fleas, ticks, and mosquitoes from biting your pet and transmitting diseases? Oh, and it also prevents intestinal parasites. (Someone please tell this to feral cats.)

I just...don't even know where people's minds are anymore. I'm all for limited vaccines, limited, safe drugs, and a proper diet...but COME ON. People are setting their dogs up to contract completely preventable diseases and parasites and they don't even know it, because they think doing "natural" things will prevent everything.

Am I completely off base? Am I the one that isn't with the times? Or have other people noticed this too?
Completely 10000% agree.

It's scary.
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  #24  
Old 04-25-2014, 09:45 AM
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I thought I should add that I am very minimal when it comes to vaccines -- Jackson had his puppy shots and one year old boosters and he's now 5 1/2 and I'm unsure if I'll ever vaccinate him again, besides rabies per the law every 3 years.

I only use flea/tick topicals when necessary, maybe 3-4 months out of the year. I use heartworm meds monthly/yearly because I don't feel the risk of heartworm is worth not giving the preventatives.

I think vaccines are extremely important, but NOT year after year, or even every 3 years. Any vet giving yearly vaccines would be crossed off my list immediately. I still think 3 years is too much. An every 5 year protocol would be more ideal IMO.

I try to feed a decent food, and Jackson just happens to look better and do better on grain free foods which is the main reason I feed it. I have no problem with some Purina foods, Science Diet or Royal Canin like a lot of people on internet forums do (and I used to). And I in fact have become very distrusting of a lot of the newer holistic companies. Good luck trying to find out if they have vets on staff, who formulated their foods, their quality control process, what their factory is like, finding exact numbers, ash content, things like that. That's why I'm feeding Farmina right now because it has the ingredients that I like but it also has the quality control and testing in check.

But I have seen some very scary things on the internet regarding heartworm, raw food, even homecooking. People not balancing things right, people feeding raw and then people online telling them their vet is basically ALLWRONG!1! and stupid and it's normal to go through 'detox' and lose hair, have bloody stool, get a broken tooth, etc... quite scary. Or people want to homecook and don't realize you can't just cook chicken and rice for their dog year after year without nutritional deficiencies.

And then folks have a sick dog and are so terrified to feed it an RX food because of what they read on the internet about these brands. They have a sick dog that is finally feeling better on an RX food and then they want to go and change it because 'RC is soooo bad!'


But yeah I would say I am somewhere in the middle overall. I like a little bit of both, and prefer a lack of chemicals when possible, etc, but am not going to stress about giving my dog heartworm meds every month that could potentially save him from getting heartworms, etc.
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  #25  
Old 04-25-2014, 01:54 PM
release the hounds release the hounds is offline
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Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
Yes, really. As evidenced by the polio and whooping cough outbreaks that haven't happened. :/

We haven't reached a critical mass in dogs yet, but I think it's pretty inevitable that we'll start seeing some serious parvo and distemper outbreaks due to people who go beyond minimal vaccines into no vaccines territory because ???? (ETA: Talking about puppies not getting vaccinated ever here, not adult dogs.)
yeah, no neurologic conditions in kids these days, they're all gone no ventilators or muscle disease either, all gone Gone are the days when polio was diagnosed by a set of symptoms of muscle aches and maybe fever for a few weeks and enter a specific blood test. They are far more specific in their diagnosis these days, but I can't say the site of kids in braces and crutches have completely disappeared. ANyway, even at it's height, 95% of people infected with polio never have a symptom. So yeah, the liklihood that your child or dog will ever be affected by anyone else's decision to not vaccinate is minimal compared to the risks and choices you'll make for your own dog or child

Whooping cough has never gone away and just fyi, the current outbreaks have nothing to do with waning vaccine rates. There isn't a researcher around that doesn't know that. Now those paid for talking heads on tv or a newspaper might tell you different, but then they probably know as much as the general public about what's going on anyway, they just get a check to deliver a certain message. anyway, waning immunity has everything to do with switching from whole cell to partial cell vaccines in the 90's.

I love the "herd immunity" and germ pool statements. You do realize that herd immunity is reached at a little over 60% vaccination rates right? and here we sit near 90 or above in some cases and people still want to say it's because people aren't vaccinating and those that don't or choose to live a more natural way are just little germ pools oozing with stuff that will kill you and your babies and puppies LOL.


like I said, the level of understanding is lacking in the general public on both sides.
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  #26  
Old 04-25-2014, 03:32 PM
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I give puppy shots at 12-16 weeks, and give immune support for a bit before and after. We feed decent grain free kibble with some raw a few times a week, mostly for the dental benefits. We have titers run on the adults yearly, and if they are low on a certain antibody we vaccinate for that only. Heartworm isn't a huge concern here, and we use topical flea meds only in the summer (or if we have a real mild winter with no real freezes we use it every other month or so) Luckily we have dogs that can do decent on ol Roy (not that we would feed it lol)
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  #27  
Old 04-25-2014, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Greenmagick View Post
OH I should add...my dogs are currently current on EVERYTHING and I am pissed lol. They were just supposed to get rabies (they had their puppy shots, I do follow Dodds protocol for them and they are currently 2 1/2 and 5 1/2).
My dogs are as well, and I ended up switching vets over it. What part of JUST RABIES was confusing to the guy I'll never know. But it really pissed me off especially since Rigby just had a full round of everything else less than a year prior. Also had a nice chat with him for prescribing broad range antibiotics as a "precaution." Because of over prescribing, antibiotics are going to be entirely useless likely within our lifetime.

Regardless, I feel that too far in either direction is harmful, vaccines and medications have their time and place. Without them our life expectancy would still be within the 30's range no doubt. Adversely too many chemicals are going to cause problems as well.
I like to do the "natural approach" where I can. But I understand the importance of certain "chemicals"
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  #28  
Old 04-25-2014, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by JustaLilBitaLuck View Post
I don't know many people that are "natural-ing" their pets to death - their pets aren't suffering from any health problems that could have been prevented/treated with Western medicine.
Thank you for wording the thoughts that I couldn't. I really can't think of any cases I've seen where the illness has any relation to the owner being "natural/holistic" with their pets. Not saying it doesn't happen but I don't see it as a big ordeal.

Quote:
And then folks have a sick dog and are so terrified to feed it an RX food because of what they read on the internet about these brands. They have a sick dog that is finally feeling better on an RX food and then they want to go and change it because 'RC is soooo bad!'
This is me My cat was put on Hills c/d after having a urinary blockage and it was my life's mission to get him off of it. When his IBD started getting really bad on it, that was when I decided now I HAVE to switch him... and I've found other diets that he does great on, that I am happy with. But vets want me to put him on a hydrolyzed diet and prednisone and call it a day. I just can't be comfortable doing that UNLESS I can't find something else that works.


Some people are just clueless and uneducated. Period. About all things. That's never a good thing. I might do things a little differently but it's all with a lot of thought and research, and it works out just fine for us
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  #29  
Old 04-29-2014, 10:28 PM
Quint Quint is offline
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Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post

like I said, the level of understanding is lacking in the general public on both sides.
You've done a wonderful job of demonstrating this!
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  #30  
Old 04-29-2014, 10:50 PM
release the hounds release the hounds is offline
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You've done a wonderful job of demonstrating this!
awwwww, aren't you cute
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