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  #81  
Old 02-22-2014, 06:29 PM
release the hounds release the hounds is offline
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Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
Which gets back to my original confusion about WHY it's not ok to breed pet GSDs. See? It's completely circular..
you can't argue with the chemicals in brains, but to try and take a stab at answering again it comes down to what are you breeding for. A good GSD is good mostly because a breeder looked at everything that makes a GSD and bred for it.

Those types of dogs and breeders are far different than the breeders that breed them because they look cute, are snugglers, are oversized, undersized, "just pets" because they have papers or are black and red. When you start not looking to put all the ingredients in the pot, and more than that, STRIVING to make sure all the ingredients are in the pot, you get less and less until you no longer have anything that resembles what once was except similar in looks.

In the end I don't care a lot. I do, but as long as people get a dog they like and take care of it for the duration of its life, that's good enough for me. It still doesn't mean I find it odd people really want something they really don't want. I just can't wrap my head around someone wanting a herding working type dog, but they don't want any of the traits that make them that kind of dog.

I want a cheeseburger, hold the cheese and hamburger please, and can you wrap it with lettuce instead of a bun? MMMM that sounds like a tasty cheeseburger
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  #82  
Old 02-22-2014, 07:31 PM
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I want a cheeseburger, hold the cheese and hamburger please, and can you wrap it with lettuce instead of a bun? MMMM that sounds like a tasty cheeseburger
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  #83  
Old 02-22-2014, 07:50 PM
ruffiangirl ruffiangirl is offline
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I was also thinking of breeds like Shiba Inu, who's original function was to go out and kill animals for its owner to eat. In order to do that the dogs needed to be independent and not paying attention to its owner. As a result they were aloof, not focused on people and really don't care if people are around them. So they don't really lend them selves to be trained, or handled, they are not obedient, or easily led. And while they could easily do many dog sports, they don't care enough about pleasing a person to listen to you to do it. So should we change the breeds temperament to make them more handler focused so they could do dog sports?
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  #84  
Old 02-22-2014, 08:02 PM
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I want a cheeseburger, hold the cheese and hamburger please, and can you wrap it with lettuce instead of a bun? MMMM that sounds like a tasty cheeseburger
I'd see it more like... I want a hamburger, but maybe I'll have a turkey burger.

Some people want pet GSDs and others don't, but no one owns the copyright to them so I guess people should feel free to keep banging their head against the wall of Dogs Other People Breed that I Don't Like for all it will change the taste of mustard.
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Old 02-22-2014, 08:23 PM
release the hounds release the hounds is offline
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so should breed standards exist? if yes, should they matter? if not then how will people identify with the dogs they so desperately want they don't really want?

Why would people want GSD's that don't have the traits that make them a GSD if there were no breeds? Would they still want it?

I bet more often than not the answer would be NO because they want what they name GSD brings with it, without having what makes it so.

At least they had the decency to call it turkey burger and didn't try and convince me that it was still hamburger
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  #86  
Old 02-22-2014, 08:28 PM
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if not then how will people identify with the dogs they so desperately want they don't really want?
Oh that's easy people on the internet will tell them what they want.
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Old 02-23-2014, 01:23 PM
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I think sometimes people take sport and working lines too far in the opposite direction.

When I think of a traditional working farm/herding dog, I think of something relatively unchanged through the years like English shepherds. They're able to do a full day's work day after day for years, but when it's time to settle down and chill, they don't pace around the room panting heavily and whining because they can't think of anything else to do.

The working dogs of yesteryear were bred to do their jobs. As long as they met the parameters set by their work and didn't break down too young, thumbs up. They weren't brought together by the hundreds or even thousands to compete against each other to see who does the job better, faster, harder, etc.
That is absolutely true in some breeds. The modern working Mals have been bred excel in bitesports that came about long after the breed originated as a protective herding dog. Most Mal people don't seem to know or care anything about their dog's herding instinct, some even seem to look down on Mals who herd as "not real work" or brag about how poorly their dogs did at herding. Sure they can still do protection work but that was just one aspect of the breed's original purpose which included herding, carting and whatever else their poor owners could train one dog to do so they didn't have to pay to keep different dogs for different jobs. Breeding for extreme traits that look really cool in competition has changed the breed. I think it's pretty safe to say that the Belgian farmers of a hundred years ago would not have tolerated a farm dog who redirected on them, was bad with their children or who easily got so aroused they couldn't think. To some (but not all), those are all acceptable traits in the breed in modern times. But it seems acceptable to many that the job for Mals has shifted and changed with time, interests and needs.

Brittanys are another good example of how breeding for working competitions has changed a breed. In field trials, "running big" is highly desirable. This means that your dog goes way, way far away from you to find birds. The dogs are allowed to wear GPS collars because they quickly and easily get so far away from you risk not being able to find them. They are followed on horseback because you would never see them on foot. I some how doubt that the original people using the breed for hunting were tracking them on GPS units Some lines of Brittanys are bred for "foot hunters" (and I think the French Brittanys also hunt closer) but those dogs don't do well in the field trials. So yes, it's really cool that ability has been preserved in that breed because having a DC is so desirable, which they have more than any other breed. But breeding for what wins in field competitions certainly has changed the type of dogs they are.

GSDs are different in a way but not in a way. The breed founder created Schutzhund to test their worthiness as breeding dogs, knowing that not all breeding dogs could be active working dogs. However, SchH and the dogs have surely changed over the past 100 years or so. I still think breeders that are following the SV standard and using SchH not as a sport but a way to test their dogs temperament are producing the dogs with the best working character. But there's all sorts of dogs being bred to the SV standard who's breeders aren't looking at SchH as a test of their dog's abilities and as either - just a title to get out of the way or as a test of breeding great competition dogs. Both of those approaches are counter to what the breed founder intended though as is all of the changes that have been made to turn SchH into more of a sport. But time changes, interests change and needs change.

A friend of mine is hoping to get a GSD puppy that is being bred for agility. You can say up and down how they should be getting this or that but they want an agility dog above all else. And they want a GSD and there happens to be someone who is breeding GSDs for that purpose from dogs proven for that purpose.

I guess my question is....why is it ok to change SchH to be more sport-like then breed dogs to excel in that sport, to develop working Mals around protection sports, to breed Brittanys to be flashy field trial dogs but it's not ok, in our modern world to breed dogs who are good pets for pet owners? Don't kid yourself, none of these examples are remaining true to the breed's "original purpose" or breeding them "like they did in the old days". It's impossible to do so, even with people who mean well and care about preserving working traits because...time changes, interests change and needs change.


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Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
It's all legitimately very confusing to me. I honestly don't understand a lot of these arguments that pop up around what seems to be a core issue of "I like the breed(s) I like the way I like it/them and think no one should mess with them." Which honestly I think is perfectly acceptable even if I don't truly understand it, but then just say so.
ITA! Honestly, I think it comes down to "I don't like this so there must be something legitimately wrong with it".

Also I'm not suggesting people looking for pet GSDs just go to the local grocery store and call someone who put a flyer up for $300 puppies. Those puppies may or may not be good pets. I'm simply suggesting going to a knowledgeable show breeder who is breeding for a more easy pet type dog and buying a pet quality puppy from them. Two very, very different things.

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Oh that's easy people on the internet will tell them what they want.
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  #88  
Old 02-23-2014, 06:23 PM
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I don't think it is OK. I try to allude to that every time i mention people paying lip service to a "standard" while they breed for everything but the standard.

As for herding, I'd love it. I don't know much about Mal's and herding other than they came from a lot of the same places GSD's did, so I'm going to assume their herding style should be similar. Here in the US there are practically zero avenues to do HGH style herding, which is very different than what is mostly available here.

I know of only one place that does it, and they have a club of like 3 members. They're 1000 miles away from me, maybe not that far, but might as well be. I don't have anywhere within a 5 hour drive one way to find HGH style herding. I wish I had that opportunity, I'd love to do it. But i'm not about to get sheep and teach myself. I'm not that smart If I had to reinvent the wheel and teach myself I think I'd end up broke and frustrated.

That said, using SchH as a actual breed test in my mind also tests the same things you need for a good herding dog. The traits are the same, and transfer easily back and forth. But I agree 100% that there are many many breeders paying lip service to the standard and using it as a hoop to jump so they can breed, rather than earning a title by being pressured and tested and pushed to earn and prove itself.
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  #89  
Old 02-23-2014, 06:46 PM
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Yes it is very difficult to find herding that is suitable for non-BCs and people unfamiliar with pushy, upright herders can cause a lot of problems trying to work them.

For me and what I want...I would go to a breeder using SchH as a temperament test for their dogs and breeding to the SV standard. I'm not really a fan of most pet type GSDs and the Amline show dogs are very unlikely to suit what I want to do with my dogs. The German showlines, it depends...I think there's still come nice ones out there and there's people on the FB group I'm on who do value working ability in their GSLs . But I just feel like I'm most likely to get what I want from a good working line breeder, in looks and in temperament. So me personally...I value the working character of the breed, even though I'm not interested in protection work/sports. I look at how working Mals are bred (often with no health testing and no thoughts about the standard) it makes me appreciate how important it is to have a system in place even when breeding working dogs to truly evaluate breeding dogs and ensure that the breed as a whole is being preserved. Not that the system is perfect or infallible or that everyone in the US chooses to follow it. But I still think there's a lot of value in breeding to the SV requirements.

But I also realize GSDs are super popular pet dogs and that is unlikely to change any time soon. That's certainly something that has changed from when they originated. And we can agree that most of those people don't actually want a working type GSD. They're still going to get a GSD though and it would be better for them and the dog if the dog was an easier, less intense version of the breed. It make seem....silly to us, as dog people but it is what it is. Not all pet bred dogs fit that requirement for sure. Actually the scariest dog I've ever been around was a pet bred GSD who was extremely, dangerously and aggressive by 8 months old. Not one bit fear related either. But that's a chance you take when you get a cheap puppy from a newspaper ad and despite the "breeder" telling you the sire is highly aggressive, you buy the puppy as a family pet with your 6 or whatever kids.
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  #90  
Old 02-23-2014, 07:10 PM
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Romy does your friend have Fairway GSDs in OR? If so, another GSD friend of mine just recommended them highly for someone looking for a nice pet GSD
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