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  #11  
Old 02-21-2005, 10:01 PM
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BigDog2191 BigDog2191 is offline
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Couldn't agree with you more, Creature Teacher.
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  #12  
Old 02-21-2005, 10:09 PM
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I agree too that he deserves a chance. I'm just saying, if the training never pays off...then what?

I'm glad there are people that are willing to take the time w/ these kinds of dogs, but I'm not one of them. That's one thing I won't do is take in a dog that bites/has bitten someone. I'm just not willing to take the time/chance.

Don't get me wrong, rescuing dogs is great. I foster a number of Border Collies every year. They get training/socialization, and then a forever home. It's a great thing, but I think there are too many dogs out there that DONT bite or aren't aggressive towards people that need homes too. I'd rather spend my time on those ones. They put shelter dogs down......no one can stop it, although we try. I would just rather see the ones that don't have aggression problems live rather than the ones that do.
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  #13  
Old 02-21-2005, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caseyolee
I agree too that he deserves a chance. I'm just saying, if the training never pays off...then what?
...And what if it does? What if I slip on the soap in the shower and smack my head? What if aliens take over the world and make us all slaves? "What ifs" can only help to prepare you; they're not a life philosophy.

I don't think it's my place to decide which dogs deserve to live and which deserve to die. I take the dogs that come to me and do anything and everything in my power to help them. They all deserve my love, understanding, patience, and help.

I drove myself to complete nervous exhaustion once over a dog. He was a black chow/something mix with a little white spot on his chest. He was so afraid of people that he always bit first and asked questions later. He was dangerous, yes, and he would've bitten me several times if I hadn't known how to respect his boundaries. I spent the better part of 2 weeks trying to reach him, then I just broke down. I thought, this is it. I knew one day it would happen. There was nothing I could do for this one. I had taken time off work, my other dogs and cats and boyfriend were furious with me. I was broke and miserable and I didn't have anything to show for it. Then it just clicked. I was sleeping against the wall in his room, just worn out, and I felt him crawl into my lap.

If I had given up, he would be dead. He was 4 months old then. Now he's one of the most accomplished dogs I know. His parents named him Talus. He has his Canine Good Citizen Award and his parents take him to visit a retirement community once or twice a month.

That's why you don't give up. Or, if you do give up, you find someone else who won't.
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  #14  
Old 02-22-2005, 12:15 AM
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Thank you all for you advice.

I won't be putting him to sleep. I do understand the concern though. In a worst case scenario, I'll end up keeping him and would keep him away from strangers. I'm not really in a situation where I want to adopt another dog at this time, but I don't mind fostering him for as long as it takes. But I don't think he's a lost hope yet. I ordered the book "Aggression in Dogs" by Brenda Aloff about a month ago, but it's been on back order since then, so I'm still waiting to read that.

I like the suggestion of going to a park where people are around but at a distance. I'll start trying that. I was thinking this morning that I need to take him out to get him more socialized. Where I usually walk him, there's not really anyone around. He is very food motivated. Though sometimes he's too food motivated, and if he knows I have treats with me, he'll focus on me completely rather than do any people watching. I suppose the clicker training mikght come in handy with that point (clicking when he's staying by my side but not staring at my hand waiting for the next treat).

I'm wondering if I should stop bringing him to adoption events? There he's usually in a crate, and people get too close and he starts the growling and barking. Oh, and he also drools alot when he's in his crate at the adoption event. He only drools when he's nervous, as best I can tell. .. Or at the least, maybe I should move him out of the crate and finding someplace calm to sit next to him where I can monitor him more easily. I like that he's around people at the adoption events (especially the volunteers whom he knows), but not when they're making him more uneasy. .. His chances of getting adopted aren't very high (we disclose all prior bite informatoin and aggression history), so if the adoption events are making things worse for him then I should stop bringing him. I don't know if they are or not.

The lunging is what has me nervous at this point. It makes me wonder how I'll ever be able to tell when I can trust him with someone. I must not be seeing the warning signs.
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  #15  
Old 02-22-2005, 12:34 AM
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You might think about holding off on the adoption events for now. It sounds like they're doing more harm than good at the moment. They're a great idea for when he's more comfortable around people.

Try to pay attention to yourself and the other person and think about what each of you were doing when Starbucks lunged. You, especially; were you tense, or worried about how Starbucks would behave? Think about trying to stay calm. Laugh a lot when other people are around so he knows you're relaxed. If he's trying to protect you, show him there's nothing to protect against!

I hope that helps. If I can do anything, please let me know.
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  #16  
Old 02-22-2005, 04:06 AM
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I have to agree with Emma /Creature Teacher - whose advice has helped me already - and BigDog... from my own recent personal experiences with a resuce. Not lunging/biting, but extreme excitement in certain situations.
The desensitization/watching from a distance approach worked, but took some time and patience -- be sure to avoid insofar as possible situations where the lunging/agression might occur... build up to them real slow and get some dog-understanding friends to help out. Sounds like that approach is already working in the car.

It would be tragic to have this dog killed - I can't beleive that it was even suggested in response to your request for help - it does seem from what you've put that you are making some progress.

Good luck homelessdog
I wish you all the best
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  #17  
Old 02-22-2005, 11:26 AM
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last summer I went to an art show that was a fund raiser for a vet that did rescue on site of his business. I never thought a second about bringing Victor. I have always taken him to the dog walk fund raisers as a "spokesdog" for save_our_strays..and try to tell anyone that asks, how I found him and all about Connie. When we pulled in Victor's whole personality changes. He cowered, shook and looked like he would make a run for it. We would have left, but other vendors had parked behind us and we were "trapped". I had my daughter handle the public while i walked Vic around and around the arena, all I could do was keep him moving. It was late in the afternoon before he relaxed. I would never do this to him again. He spent two (that I know of) of his first 5 months in such a place. I don't thnk he needs any more reminders.
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  #18  
Old 02-22-2005, 11:28 AM
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Homeless, you and BigDog and Emma the CreatureTeacher and so many others here are just the best!

You're right on the money about the drooling. That's definitely a severe stress reaction from a dog (unless it's a 'drooly' breed, lol). Where do you think all those descriptions of slavering dogs attacking comes from? Trust your instincts - I think they're good and Emma is giving you such good advice. With that combination I think you're going to give this boy a new outlook and a chance to be something special.
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  #19  
Old 02-22-2005, 01:48 PM
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I think this is such an important thread, and one I can't get out of my head. I have worked with dogs most of my life..and I have been bit many times..mostly my own fault for diving into a fight, somehow it never dawns on me that they have more mass and more teeth..but when taking a dog into your home with all the best intentions ther is a lot of responsiblity and risk when taking on a biter. Not everyone is cut out for what the long haul requires, and being bit can take on permanent damage..Creature Teacher your a saint of the dogs..you also have training and instinct that not everyone else has. I don't think being put to sleep is the answer, but in all fairness and honesty what is? There are very few of you, and so many dogs out there that need help. I have been bit twice severe, once severed the tendons when the tooth went down between my index and third finger of my right hand. It took several dozen inside stitches before they got to the outside. Two years went by before I gained the use of those two fingers that make up my drawing hand..once in the eye where the tooth went between my eye and the socket..i was lucky that time. the rest of my scars were in the large muscles and no big deal.
A scared dog can be very dangerous..and the person taking the animal into their home is now responsible for all that can happen...they can be sued as well if the animal gets out of their control and harms someone else. If a person is over their heads with what they are dealing with..who do they call? You all may be mad at me for writing this, but i feel it is important. We had a dog someone was "hiding" at the kennels. He bit the breast off of a 16 year old girl. THey left him in that chainlink jail for the rest of his life. He was mean, very, very, very mean. I did not go in and give him sugars in his ears everyday, so I am sure that someone could have worked with him, but i was scared and that's the truth. being bit hurts, and is dangerous..I think both sides should be carefully examined when taking on this kind of rescue. I have worked with people that are brain damaged, all adults, and some dangerous..their teeth were pulled because the bit, they hit and they harmed..some could be worked with and their lives improved..others you might have been talking to your shoes for all your tried, but you tried all the same yet they were monitored when out in public and not put in the path of people that didn't know phyical crisis intevention movements...i can't see people being any different from dogs, there isn't much on here that i have seen in threads about the mental fitness of an animal...no doggy psych we can take them to so it is mostly diving in head first and hoping for the best. I wish you all the luck in the world with your efforts, and I will hold you in silent meditation that all works out for the best.
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  #20  
Old 02-22-2005, 01:59 PM
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Renee750il Renee750il is offline
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You were definitely right not to try to deal with a dog you were afraid of! That just never does any good for either of you.

Somehow, someway, there are times when the right people stumble across dogs that need them and everyone comes out of the encounter greatly enhanced.
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In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves. ~Buddha

Stupid is the most notoriously incurable and contagious disease known to mankind. If you find yourself in close proximity to someone infected with stupid, walk away as soon as said infection is noted.


There are few things more nauseating than pure obedience. ~ Kvothe

***8206;"silence is the language of god, all else is poor translation."
Rumi
Be a god. Know when to shut up.


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