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Old 01-04-2014, 03:08 PM
crazedACD crazedACD is offline
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Default Titling and Breeding

Just for discussion purposes.

I believe most here have stated that they like to see dogs get titled prior to being bred. So, what performance titles do you think are acceptable to prove breeding stock worthy? Are a bunch of novice titles from various sports acceptable? Should the dog be exceptional in some venue? One of the top dogs in the breed/venue and/or quickly titling, or is it ok for the dog to stay local, sometimes NQ'ing, etc etc. I do realize there is a difference between sort of 'real world' instinct based sports (herding, hunting, coursing etc) and training a dog in obedience or agility. Do you think it is ok to a breed a dog you 'know' could trial/title and do well, but the owner does not have the time/money/know-how to prepare the dog to trial? How much of 'titling' is the handler/trainer, and how much of it is really the dog? Is there a difference between a dog and a bitch, or a dog that is going to be kept private, or 'studded' out publicly to appropriate bitches?
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Old 01-04-2014, 03:34 PM
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I think it depends. If you're breeding pets, a variety of novice titles is good... shows that the dog is reasonably good with people, adaptable, trainable etc.

If you're advertising your dogs as working dogs and using titles to show it, I expect higher titles.

I really don't like the "I know they'd do well" but if the breeder is established, experienced and the rest of the program demonstrates stringent culling, I'm fine with it. Probably.
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Old 01-04-2014, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazedACD View Post
So, what performance titles do you think are acceptable to prove breeding stock worthy? Are a bunch of novice titles from various sports acceptable? Should the dog be exceptional in some venue? One of the top dogs in the breed/venue and/or quickly titling, or is it ok for the dog to stay local, sometimes NQ'ing, etc etc. I do realize there is a difference between sort of 'real world' instinct based sports (herding, hunting, coursing etc) and training a dog in obedience or agility. Do you think it is ok to a breed a dog you 'know' could trial/title and do well, but the owner does not have the time/money/know-how to prepare the dog to trial? How much of 'titling' is the handler/trainer, and how much of it is really the dog? Is there a difference between a dog and a bitch, or a dog that is going to be kept private, or 'studded' out publicly to appropriate bitches?
For a while I've been looking for breeders/dogs/litters that really match up to what I'm looking for in a GSD, one that will be a companion, IPO prospect, and just a good example of the breed. I've gone through breeders that do extensive trialing and competing at national and international levels, breeders that do the "basic" OFA hips (or European equivalent) and IPO1 minimum, breeders that have a couple of dogs with novice titles in various performance venues, and breeders that only have one or two of their breeding stock titled.

The three breeders highest on my list would be the breeder with the dogs that have competed as a part of the WUSV and FCI world teams (and at other national level competitions over the years)... and two breeders who only have a couple of titled dogs in their breeding program.

It really, really depends. I like to see titled dogs in a breeding program, I do. Particularly IPO or PSA titled dogs for my breed of choice. But there are also other things to consider, and other ways to evaluate a dog beyond titling. Sometimes I will come across a breeder who's opinion and vision for the breed are the same as mine, and who has shown to have a wealth of knowledge regarding (and experience with) the breed and working dogs. One of the breeders I hope to have a dog from does not title most of her dogs, but she works them herself and evaluates them by her own standards. And she is the kind of breeder that I will actually trust more than a performance trial, so I am completely comfortable going to her for a dog. I also will look at what the kennel has produced before (as I believe the breeder does, too), and try to see if they are producing the kind of dog I want.

However, it should be noted that I am not looking for an IPO prospect to take to high levels of competition. I look at breeders keeping in mind what I want specifically, and if I wanted something else I may have a different set of standards or a different approach. As a general rule of thumb, I do want to see a breeder trialing and training his/her dogs and earning IPO titles. As far as scores and NQs go, I'd like to see the trial/performance for myself - there are many reasons why good dogs NQ and I have seen some of it myself, so that doesn't exactly worry me.

Even better than seeing the trial, I'd like to know about the training process and see the dog in training, but that's not usually an option. I do believe that the training process is more revealing than the trial and title itself, and that a dog that's not breed worthy can certainly earn the required titles (just as an excellent dog might be difficult to title depending on the handler/trainer). Now, how much of it exactly is the dog and how much is the handler depends on the handler and the dog.

Sorry, a really long winded and rambling answer. TL;DR version is same as Xandra's much better reply - it depends
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Old 01-04-2014, 05:04 PM
ruffiangirl ruffiangirl is offline
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For me there are a few factors, breed is one, some breeds are not highly trainable, not that they are not smart, just not super trainable, or biddable, northern spitz breeds come to mind, they tend to be of their own mind. Some novice obedience/working titles shows a heck of a lot more work in training then say an average border collie who lives to serve its human.

On top of that I prefer to see titles on working breeds that pertain to their breed, herding on herding dogs, field titles on those dogs, etc, even if it is novice (for pet dogs not working). As well as other titles, preferably.

As for the 'I know she/he could' well for me if you can afford to title your dogs you shouldn't be breeding, for me, it's just as important as health testing. If I am buying a pup I want the the pup to grow up to look like my chosen breed, to act like my chosen breed and perform as my chosen breed. I know no other way then titling to show this. Now if the dog has no conformation titles because they didn't like to be in the show ring, but some other titles at least then I understand that. If it couldn't perform due to an injury that is not health related (car accident or something) I can understand that as well. But if the rest of the dogs in the kennel/lineage have been shown/working it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.

All of this is for someone breeding for pet dogs, not true working dogs, I have no idea how one would go about figuring that out lol.
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Old 01-04-2014, 07:31 PM
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To me it also depends on whether the dog is working a real job or not. An actively working SAR dog isn't going to be a good candidate for competitive tracking because SAR dogs are taught to air scent when they're looking for lost people. Most real jobs will carry more weight for me personally than a sport title.

I didn't get Kaia's coursing title before breeding her for two reasons. One, I made an agreement with her breeder that she wouldn't be coursed until after finishing her conformation title (she's not doing that stipulation again, it's taking forever because Kaia needs one major to finish and there are very very few majors around here. )

However, Kaia is proved on live game including coyotes. That is more of a test of working ability than most borzoi in the world ever have the opportunity for.
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Old 01-04-2014, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romy View Post

I didn't get Kaia's coursing title before breeding her for two reasons. One, I made an agreement with her breeder that she wouldn't be coursed until after finishing her conformation title (she's not doing that stipulation again, it's taking forever because Kaia needs one major to finish and there are very very few majors around here. )
Not to derail the thread, but what would the purpose does that stipulation serve, out of curiosity?
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Old 01-04-2014, 07:47 PM
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When looking at ES breeders, you don't see a lot of titling. Most people who own & breed are generally breeding all around 'farm helpers'. I like to see health testing & that the dogs are there assisting with farm stuff.
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:50 PM
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Speaking Sports:
To me a novice fancier should not be breeding a dog without titling to a higher level, for the provocation from outside judgement. However, with an experienced breed fancier I have far more faith in their evaluation of the whole dog prior to ring time.
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
Speaking Sports:
To me a novice fancier should not be breeding a dog without titling to a higher level, for the provocation from outside judgement. However, with an experienced breed fancier I have far more faith in their evaluation of the whole dog prior to ring time.
Okay, now that I've read this, this is what I believe as well. I just couldn't type/say it because I'm a rambling rambler who rambles
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
Speaking Sports:
To me a novice fancier should not be breeding a dog without titling to a higher level, for the provocation from outside judgement. However, with an experienced breed fancier I have far more faith in their evaluation of the whole dog prior to ring time.
^I agree with this. And I mean for all the sports...conformation, obedience, agility, IPO, hunt tests, etc. Whatever you are claiming the dogs you are producing should be able to excel at above all else.
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