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  #41  
Old 11-15-2013, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Torch View Post
I couldn't live with myself if my dogs bit a child (or anyone) UNPROVOKED and I could have prevented it.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, the OP's dog isn't biting unprovoked? It sounds like there are specific triggers and situations. Conflating the issue by lumping dogs who have specific problems with dogs who are unpredictable isn't really constructive IMO. We're not in Hypothetical Land, we're talking about a specific individual dog in a specific individual situation.

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Until you own and love a breed vilified by the public you won't understand where I'm coming from.
I have and I do (mixes, anyway). And I honestly I do but I don't understand where you're coming from. A manageable dog who bites with specific, known triggers isn't automatically an "unstable" dog IMO. And although the dog in question hasn't been evaluated by a behaviorist, from the OP's description that's where this dog seems to be falling for me with the information I'm reading so far.

Now whether the home is an environment where everyone understands the behavior and takes it seriously and is willing and able to commit to that management and training is where the question of responsibility comes in for me. And the answer to that question is what is going to be different for every person. What is responsible for the same exact dog in two different households might be very different.
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  #42  
Old 11-15-2013, 09:34 AM
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I'm on my phone and can't reply too well but I agree with sass completely.

I've never had a dog whose first instinct was to bite when uncomfortable. But that doesn't mean none ever did bite. All bites I've seen have had clear triggers and signs leading to it. That's a far cry from a dog that just randomly bites and I don't think the two should be treated the same way.

And besides when does a dog get labelled a 'man biter' anyways? Warning bite ok? How about if it breaks the skin? Or how about my trainer's BC who nailed her when overstimulated? Defensive aggression? Some breeds are bred to bite and WILL if put into the right situation.

My point is just that saying teeth on skin = buh bye automatically seems like jumping the gun. Especially with a dog that hasn't been seen by a professional.
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  #43  
Old 11-15-2013, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
Unless I'm misunderstanding, the OP's dog isn't biting unprovoked? It sounds like there are specific triggers and situations. Conflating the issue by lumping dogs who have specific problems with dogs who are unpredictable isn't really constructive IMO. We're not in Hypothetical Land, we're talking about a specific individual dog in a specific individual situation.



I have and I do (mixes, anyway). And I honestly I do but I don't understand where you're coming from. A manageable dog who bites with specific, known triggers isn't automatically an "unstable" dog IMO. And although the dog in question hasn't been evaluated by a behaviorist, from the OP's description that's where this dog seems to be falling for me with the information I'm reading so far.

Now whether the home is an environment where everyone understands the behavior and takes it seriously and is willing and able to commit to that management and training is where the question of responsibility comes in for me. And the answer to that question is what is going to be different for every person. What is responsible for the same exact dog in two different households might be very different.
The OP has given numerous examples of the dog's behavior that tell me that the dog is fearful, somewhat unstable, and is escalating his bites. Without immediate intervention, we're talking about some bad news bears. The OP is considering euthanasia so I assume the situation and the behaviors they are witnessing are fairly alarming and serious. And while I agree that the dog clearly has specific triggers, we're not talking about "my dog bites when someone tries to assault me" we're talking about "my dog bites when I touch his collar". That's a level of unacceptable for me.

I had an unstable little spaniel when I was growing up. She had a shitty temperament and bit me frequently. She was a fear biter but also bit out of irritation and displeasure. I loved that dog dearly but as an adult I can look back and see what a sad life that she had. She feared many, many things and was often unhappy. It's a quality of life question for me as well as a liability. We worked with a trainer, used positive techniques, and she still bit me when she was displeased over silly things. It took YEARS for me to be able to groom her without being nipped, and I never hit her, lost my temper, or hurt her in any way. I'll never own a dog like that again.

An unsound dog is an unsound dog no matter how you dress it up or justify it.
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  #44  
Old 11-15-2013, 09:56 AM
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We don't really know if this dog is unpredictable, we don't have enough information about his triggers. I probably wouldn't be able to keep an unpredictable aggressive dog alive either. But predictable does not equal friendly. My dog is very predictable (though not 100%, that's not possible with a living thing). I can predict when he'll bite, I know I can because I've seen him reach that threshold a few times. My dog is aggressive and predictable.

To me a predictable, aggressive dog can be safely managed if the triggers can be managed and the dog is in the right situation with the right person who is willing to go out of their way to keep people safe from him, whatever that means. The dog doesn't leave a bad impression for pit bulls if he's not out there biting people. I don't know on who or in what situations these previous bites happened, but I'm going to assume that effort wasn't being put into managing him at those times (perhaps owner in denial of aggression) and the OP is now going to do proper management going forward if she decides not to PTS. So I'm not going to jump to the "well she's already let him bite, of course it will happen again!!" because I don't have enough information on what has been done and what will be done in the future to prevent bites.


I also take offense to saying a more friendly dog would make someone happier. That depends entirely on the person and dog. I know plenty of non-biting dogs I would dislike living with FAR more than my aggressive dog.
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  #45  
Old 11-15-2013, 10:03 AM
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Yeah, I'm with the whole don't jump the gun. My Border has bitten& broken my skin THREE times ..it's because he gets SOHIGH on agility equipment then if I'm in the way, boom! There goes my flesh. That's the only thing that causes biting but even with that, I've had people suggest we put him down because he's bitten?!!! People amaze me.

I think it's a personal decision& others can guide you but probably cannot give you a straight answer. There is no straight answer ..the people on this thread can't even agree! So I think the answer is to do what you feel is right. Feel like you can manage it? Then try! Feel like it's not worth the anxiety/ fear? Then go with the PTS option. Not everyone is the same or has the same level of tolerance/ skill to deal with biting.
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  #46  
Old 11-15-2013, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxy24 View Post
We don't really know if this dog is unpredictable, we don't have enough information about his triggers. I probably wouldn't be able to keep an unpredictable aggressive dog alive either. But predictable does not equal friendly. My dog is very predictable (though not 100%, that's not possible with a living thing). I can predict when he'll bite, I know I can because I've seen him reach that threshold a few times. My dog is aggressive and predictable.

To me a predictable, aggressive dog can be safely managed if the triggers can be managed and the dog is in the right situation with the right person who is willing to go out of their way to keep people safe from him, whatever that means. The dog doesn't leave a bad impression for pit bulls if he's not out there biting people. I don't know on who or in what situations these previous bites happened, but I'm going to assume that effort wasn't being put into managing him at those times (perhaps owner in denial of aggression) and the OP is now going to do proper management going forward if she decides not to PTS. So I'm not going to jump to the "well she's already let him bite, of course it will happen again!!" because I don't have enough information on what has been done and what will be done in the future to prevent bites.


I also take offense to saying a more friendly dog would make someone happier. That depends entirely on the person and dog. I know plenty of non-biting dogs I would dislike living with FAR more than my aggressive dog.
I'm a heck of a lot happier with my two stable dogs than I was as a twelve year old girl crying about my dog nipping me for the umpteenth time. I feel a heck of a lot more at ease with my every day life knowing how my dogs are going to react to a situation rather than living in fear of what's going to trigger them.

And again, until you walk down the street with your dog and mothers pick up their children in fear, people openly scorn and insult you and your dog ("Wait til he's grown and wants to rip your throat out!" "Why would you ever want to own a pit bull?), and you have to question everyone's intention towards your dog, you cannot understand how strongly I value my peace of mind regarding my dogs' stability.
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  #47  
Old 11-15-2013, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Torch View Post
I'm a heck of a lot happier with my two stable dogs .
That's great! I'm happy for you!

To assume just because something makes you happier, that everybody else will be happier with how you have it, is just ludicrous.
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  #48  
Old 11-15-2013, 10:25 AM
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What exactly defines an unsound dog? One that bites people? Ma'ii is in no way aggressive, but.....he's an ACD. Unlike Charlotte, who's a social butterfly, he's aloof with strangers and would rather be off doing other things than hanging out with them. He has never bitten anyone before, and wouldn't under general circumstances, but if someone came rushing at me or him, he'd bite them.

The idea of euthanizing him based on the fact that he's capable of biting, and that I'd be happier with a dog who was friendlier with strangers is a huge joke to me.
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  #49  
Old 11-15-2013, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PitBullLove View Post
I have come back to discuss something I am having a very hard time with, to get opinions on the matter.

I deal with rats who bite out of fear day in and day out. Dealing with a pit who bites... I have known the decision I would be faced with when it comes to dealing with such a dog, being so involved with the breed.

I am having trouble because I love the breed so much and I hate to have a dog that is such a horrific example of the breed. Pit bulls are supposed to be bomb proof with people, etc. etc. I could go on for days...he is not. He has bitten multiple people, always out of fear. Simply being grabbed by the collar, he will bite. And he has not been abused at all - he has been socialized, and trained. I believe it was simply his breeding...

I am also having trouble because for that same reason - because I love the breed, because I love dogs, because my passion is rescue, how can I just give up on him? How can I take his life? I have worked and worked and worked with him, but then one day someone will go to grab his collar and SNAP he'll bite. What if a kid runs up to him one day and he bites? I have no doubt in the world that he will.

I would never PTS a biting rat, but I'd PTS a biting pit bull...simply because of the breed's image? But that's the human race's fault. What if he was a different breed of dog? Would he be given more of a chance? More of a chance can't be risked with a pit bull because of their breed's image, I know...but it's so unfortunate.
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Originally Posted by JessLough View Post
That's great! I'm happy for you!

To assume just because something makes you happier, that everybody else will be happier with how you have it, is just ludicrous.
I've bolded the parts of the OP that are red flags for me.

JessLough, it is so darn interesting to me that you take umbridge at my opinion when that is what the OP is ****ing asking for. OPINIONS. So I gave mine.

Get off me.
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  #50  
Old 11-15-2013, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Shakou View Post
What exactly defines an unsound dog? One that bites people?
It depends on the breed. I personally hold APBTs to a much higher standard than most breeds, because APBTs are the only breed out there intended to have such an enormous degree of bite inhibition toward people as a breed trait. Considering the fact that the majority of APBTs will not lay tooth on a person, even if the dog is in severe pain, or redirect on a person who breaks their hold during a fight -- traits so deeply ingrained in the breed that even show dogs I've owned who haven't had a pit dog in their pedigree for many generations have been predictable in those situations -- then yes, fear-aggression very much defines "unstable" in this breed.
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