Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > The Dog Breeds


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 10-18-2013, 04:47 PM
AdrianneIsabel's Avatar
AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
Glutton for Crazy
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 8,893
Default

Actually, pacing and panting was something I had to live with with Backup.

I think you're missing a key point here, some behaviors take *years* to fix.

So, yes, while working on said behaviors one is living with them, one must be comfortable living with them.

Jack is careful with strangers and I see the potential for social anxieties, problem barking, and low food drive paired with extreme-lacking-clarity toy drive. His potential home will need to be comfortable with living with these behaviors *while* they work on them.

Again, just because its not done yet doesn't mean it's not a work in progress. The point is people are making their best effort to not sugar coat the issues associated with these dogs, in actuality attempting to not have someone shocked when they're not as easy to live with as they are to train flash to.
__________________
Sloan von Krigbaum IPO1 CGC BH CD NA NJ PD MJ-N RATI RATN 3/7/10 -
Shamoo NJ-N RATI RATN 3/1/98 -
Phelan du Loups du Soleil CGC RATI 6/15/13 -
Chili Brigades Brover 5/23/14 -

Arnold CGC TDI FD 6/29/04 - 07/05/13
Backup CGC HIC CD SRD SJ-N RATI 12/29/09 - 07/05/13

You were amazing, we did amazing things.


Harmony Canine, relationship based training.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-18-2013, 10:04 PM
Red Chrome's Avatar
Red Chrome Red Chrome is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,568
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily View Post

Also, on a different note, I think it's extremely obvious that mouthing/biting in an adult dog and mouthing/biting in a 7 week old puppy are not comparable. That seems obvious to me, but since the comparison was made, apparently it's not? I have little comment on the issue; I would be appalled at an adult dog of any breed doing that and I admit that dog would not exactly be seeing my happy face or my patient side right there and then, but I also haven't trained every dog and I certainly know how these dogs in particular can be. I still get bit sometimes, it happens, mostly sloppy targeting but sometimes plain frustration or stupidity (mouth first, brain later... or never) on the dog's part. I'm not exactly lax about it or very forgiving of bites that don't come from honest targeting error, and I admit I think that plays a part in keeping those events relatively isolated, but like I said, I haven't trained every dog in every situation.

My last thought is that if I was personally looking for a reactive dog helper, I'd probably look at adults and be looking the right individual, with breed not really being a big part of my consideration.
My point was that it starts young in these breeds and continues for their whole life usually. For a lot of these dogs, naughtiness and grabiness is a never ending cycle and needs to be continually worked on normally. I'm leaving all the rest alone. These are a different type of dog.
__________________
Osyrius SilverChrome GTOVonMarionHaus-OFA H/E DM Free CGC DDJ RN BH
WBBs BleauChrome Lady of TheCopa-CGC STARR Naughty RockStar
The BlackChrome Executioner VonMarionHaus-Puppy Terrorist
The OldMan Hobie-CGC Rotten Old Dog 11/14/99-01/08/2013
Talulajhs RedChrome Kahpone-CGC TT BH TDI 10/31/04-06/07/10.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-19-2013, 08:37 AM
Emily's Avatar
Emily Emily is offline
Rollin' with my bitches
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,115
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Chrome View Post
My point was that it starts young in these breeds and continues for their whole life usually. For a lot of these dogs, naughtiness and grabiness is a never ending cycle and needs to be continually worked on normally. I'm leaving all the rest alone. These are a different type of dog.
Yes, and I own and work this type of dog and have many friends who do as well. I understand what they're like.

But all 7 week old puppies play bite and mouth. Yorkies to GSDs. All of 'em. Sorry, but I had a really hard time seeing that as relevant to the conversation, frankly.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-19-2013, 09:27 AM
Red Chrome's Avatar
Red Chrome Red Chrome is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,568
Default

Different strokes for different folks. I explained why I mentioned that and I don't see all puppies having the intensity and drive that any working bred puppy does.

Interestingly enough, I have placed 5 GSDs in working K9 programs and know that the kind of dog it takes to do that would not be good for most people......sport people included.

Too many people are getting Mals cause they're the new "it" breed for sport, to have and they don't realize what they're really getting until it's too late. Too many people are sugar coating what these dogs are and that's sad.
__________________
Osyrius SilverChrome GTOVonMarionHaus-OFA H/E DM Free CGC DDJ RN BH
WBBs BleauChrome Lady of TheCopa-CGC STARR Naughty RockStar
The BlackChrome Executioner VonMarionHaus-Puppy Terrorist
The OldMan Hobie-CGC Rotten Old Dog 11/14/99-01/08/2013
Talulajhs RedChrome Kahpone-CGC TT BH TDI 10/31/04-06/07/10.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 10-19-2013, 09:41 AM
Emily's Avatar
Emily Emily is offline
Rollin' with my bitches
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,115
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Chrome View Post
Different strokes for different folks. I explained why I mentioned that and I don't see all puppies having the intensity and drive that any working bred puppy does.

Interestingly enough, I have placed 5 GSDs in working K9 programs and know that the kind of dog it takes to do that would not be good for most people......sport people included.

Too many people are getting Mals cause they're the new "it" breed for sport, to have and they don't realize what they're really getting until it's too late. Too many people are sugar coating what these dogs are and that's sad.
Well, no, clearly they're not going to be the same as a working bred puppy. I'm not suggesting these dogs aren't different, they are. But I don't think the example of a tiny puppy biting really proves anything.

Not sure about the relevance of the rest. Could talk about the working K9's I train with, some impressive, some not so much, but again I'm not sure it's entirely relevant.

I'm not a fan of sugar-coating in general, personally. If anyone wants to hear about my dog's own public access challenges and daily insane shenanigans I'll gladly share them.

They're not for most people. But that was never really the question in this thread, from what I can see.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 10-19-2013, 11:57 AM
Aleron's Avatar
Aleron Aleron is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 2,270
Default

All dogs do present their own challenges. Roust can't be touched by strangers. It's something I have been working with him on since I got him. We're now at the point where people he does nose touches to strangers and can be touched lightly (muzzled). Honestly, he could be a lot further along in other training if I wasn't spending so much time on solving his stranger issues and making sure his foundation is super solid. But then again, without those things it's going to be hard to get anywhere in competition anyway.

I have a friend who breeds working GSDs and her dogs are also family pets. They live with her little girl, her little girl "works" the old dogs Schutzhund (which is adorable) and they are expected to be sound, trustworthy dogs. In every litter she's had, puppies are placed in homes for all purposes - k9s, detection dogs, SAR, service dogs (sometimes for children), performance/obedience dogs and pets. And a good GSD should be able to do all of those things. Do you sometimes get more difficult dogs even with the best breedings? Of course. But that's true in any breed too. If you want a shepherd breed that is driven, sound, versatile and suited for multiple tasks you should be able to find one by researching breeders, seeing enough dogs and talking to enough people. And being aware of the potential problems before they appear and being proactive with training and management.

Which brings us back to the reactive dog thing. That is the sticking point for me. Of everything on the "wanted" list, that's the one that makes me uncertain a dog of one of these breeds is going to be suitable. IME if you want a dog of these breeds who's good with other dogs, your best bet is to avoid allowing too much interaction with strange dogs, especially when they are developmentally immature. I've known many GSDs and Belgians who developed reactivity issues after repeated exposure to rude, pushy dogs in class, dog park or daycare settings. And those were not even dogs who were showing aggression to them, just dogs who weren't respectful of their space or initial "back off" cues. Using one for reactive dog work IMO is not being proactive with your training and management, it's setting your dog up to have a potential issue with other dogs. I would think the best suited breeds for something like that would be the stoic pack hounds, who have been bred since forever to be extremely tolerant of other dogs. Shepherd breeds are by nature, wired to react to perceived threats. That isn't to say some wouldn't be suitable but the ones who would be IMO are going to be the really well trained, well socialized mature dogs who won't react because they are so well behaved and experienced they know there's no real threat.
__________________
Nikki & the Herding Breed Variety Pack
Visit Us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Alerondogs
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 10-19-2013, 12:35 PM
AdrianneIsabel's Avatar
AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
Glutton for Crazy
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 8,893
Default

We may own very different dogs. That's okay, but to presume we are encouraging our dogs to be inappropriate in some offensive attempt to safeguard drive is the kicker.

Your dog has issues, you work on them and simultaneously live with them. It's the idea that people see the finished product and assume that's what it's like to live with a Malinois or Dutch that frightens me, hence the blunt honesty of issues faced.
__________________
Sloan von Krigbaum IPO1 CGC BH CD NA NJ PD MJ-N RATI RATN 3/7/10 -
Shamoo NJ-N RATI RATN 3/1/98 -
Phelan du Loups du Soleil CGC RATI 6/15/13 -
Chili Brigades Brover 5/23/14 -

Arnold CGC TDI FD 6/29/04 - 07/05/13
Backup CGC HIC CD SRD SJ-N RATI 12/29/09 - 07/05/13

You were amazing, we did amazing things.


Harmony Canine, relationship based training.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 10-19-2013, 03:25 PM
Aleron's Avatar
Aleron Aleron is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 2,270
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
We may own very different dogs. That's okay, but to presume we are encouraging our dogs to be inappropriate in some offensive attempt to safeguard drive is the kicker.
That mindset isn't as uncommon as you seem to think. I actually known a lot of people who put up with all sorts of things in their young dogs (bitesport people and performance people) because they worry that teaching the dog to control their impulses will "ruin the drive". I see it all the time actually and usually the problem is only addressed once the dog is older and it has become an issue with competition. I have actually heard people bragging about how much their young dogs bite them due to over stimulation as some sort of reference to how super driven their dogs are (again not just bitesports people but performance sport people too). I don't know, different people have different mindsets. To me biting me due to over stimulation falls in the same category as resource guarding from me, which is also something that tends to be hardwired and more common in the sorts of dogs I have. And that category is, it's just not acceptable to me and if I get a young dog who shows signs of it it's addressed immediately and repeatedly until it becomes no longer worth discussing. That doesn't mean I think a super harsh correction is all it takes. While I'm not beyond correcting one of my dogs for using their mouth on me inappropriately, I also really, really stress impulse control. And I really do think sometimes it is about people's expectations and what they're willing to accept. That may not be a popular opinion but it is what it is. I'm not saying that is the case with any one here but it certainly does happen that people sometimes encourage these sorts of behaviors, accidentally or otherwise. I remember reading a thread on a forum populated with working Mal saying Mals are unsuitable for agility because one could never expect such a driven dog to not bite you while you're running them. Seriously!
__________________
Nikki & the Herding Breed Variety Pack
Visit Us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Alerondogs
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 10-19-2013, 04:06 PM
AdrianneIsabel's Avatar
AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
Glutton for Crazy
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 8,893
Default

I am not referring to anything beyond your post here which did single out a post and use it as an example. There are plenty of fools in the world, "don't teach a show dog a sit", but this thread isn't filled with fools and their preaching.

Again, no one here encouraged such behaviors nor did they say it happens to be inevitable with all Malinois.

Just because you've needed to muzzle Roo for now to take him in public doesn't mean I need to do the same for my dogs, nor have any of mine have been as bad as Aeri on clothing grabbing, and I would bet money none except Harry have been as bad as Backup in pacing, but these are all common issues within the breed(s).

These posts were made in an effort to assist an educated choice on what the OP may or may not consider easy to live with. These dogs are easy to train in many settings, easy to manage and live with is far from a label I would give to them.
__________________
Sloan von Krigbaum IPO1 CGC BH CD NA NJ PD MJ-N RATI RATN 3/7/10 -
Shamoo NJ-N RATI RATN 3/1/98 -
Phelan du Loups du Soleil CGC RATI 6/15/13 -
Chili Brigades Brover 5/23/14 -

Arnold CGC TDI FD 6/29/04 - 07/05/13
Backup CGC HIC CD SRD SJ-N RATI 12/29/09 - 07/05/13

You were amazing, we did amazing things.


Harmony Canine, relationship based training.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 10-19-2013, 04:59 PM
AdrianneIsabel's Avatar
AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
Glutton for Crazy
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 8,893
Default

I hope the point I was trying to make is these posts have been made by Malinois and shepherd owners with experience and good intentions. These posts are not made by people who encourage behaviors for sporting.

It only fair to the dogs to inform prospective Malinois (or Dutch or GSD) owners know what they could end up with and let them choose if they *want* to live with these behaviors *while* working on them.
__________________
Sloan von Krigbaum IPO1 CGC BH CD NA NJ PD MJ-N RATI RATN 3/7/10 -
Shamoo NJ-N RATI RATN 3/1/98 -
Phelan du Loups du Soleil CGC RATI 6/15/13 -
Chili Brigades Brover 5/23/14 -

Arnold CGC TDI FD 6/29/04 - 07/05/13
Backup CGC HIC CD SRD SJ-N RATI 12/29/09 - 07/05/13

You were amazing, we did amazing things.


Harmony Canine, relationship based training.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:07 AM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site