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Old 08-09-2013, 01:42 PM
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Default Spin off Breeding Contracts

Kinnda a spin off of Alicia's Thread on contracts. So if you where keeping a dog intact for a breeder in case he/she ends up breeding quality. Breeders what would you want to see on the contract for yourself and the owner. And Puppy owners, what would you like to see on the contract for yourself and from the breeder?

I should add this is not a co-own contract.

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Old 08-09-2013, 02:04 PM
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In the odd event I would ever agree to such a contract.

As a buyer: I would expect the dog to be free. I am doing the breeder a HUGE favor raising that dog for him - socializing it - and taking all the risk on loss. I would be responsible for the feed bill and anything medical that would be incidental.

As a seller: I would expect the person to stay in touch. I would expect to pay all medical testing costs and show costs. I would also retain full ownership and treat this as a lease until terms of the contract are full filled.

Leerburg had a page awhile back on how foster breeding systems work.
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:22 PM
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I would be open to such a contract even with me paying for the dog but it would have to be someone I trust and know is on a very similar page as far as breeding programs go. I've seen things go badly when people have different ideals. I'd want to have some say in whether the dog gets bred and who to. I'd want age of the stud/dam and health tests required spelled out. And I'd want it spelled out beforehand how many litters we'd be doing.

But I see the value in keeping and breeding dogs that aren't owned by the primary breeder. I value genetic diversity above most else so especially in the less common breeds I'd be open to leaving a dog intact to breed if needed.
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Old 08-12-2013, 07:34 PM
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Thanks guys for the input. So if you own the dog outright, what would you want your agreement when it comes to who pays for the heath testing and the vet bills when it comes to collecting the semen and should there be a stud fee?

I was thinking it would be fair of the breeder payed for all the health testing, and then there is no stud fee. And maybe you have the option of taking on of the pups.
OR
You pay for the health testing and then the breeder has to pay a stud fee and you maybe have an option of taking one of the pups at no cost.

What do you think?
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Old 08-12-2013, 10:43 PM
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The breeders contracts that I have been a part of in the past (me purchasing the pup) was this:

Full purchase price and I paid for the health clearances, if said pup was of breeding quality then the breeder paid for the stud fee and took 1st and 2nd pick pups from the litter that I whelped out and paid for all vet costs. I also didn't have a choice on the stud.

For me as the breeder I don't expect my puppy buyers to agree to that ^^^ because I don't think it is really fair.

Pups are sold at full purchase price, and we hold off on s/n the pup. IF the pup matures into a breeding quality dog, then we do the health clearances which I pay for. Then we discuss which studs and who is going to whelp out the litter etc. I pay stud fee and all expenses. I would then take half the litter getting 1st and 3rd pick and so on. That said if the owner fell in love with a pup and it was pick and they wanted to keep it, I would agree and not be impossible to deal with. Hopefully that pup would be outstanding and I could get a pup from it in the future.

The goal is for everyone to be happy and since I hate breeding and only breed A bitch every 3-5 years my puppy people don't have to worry about it too much lmao. The goal is for me to carry on with my lines and get the dogs I want but that doesn't mean it comes at the expense of someone else.
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:59 AM
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If it's a bitch, I won't place it on a breeding contract. I don't think it's fair to expect people to do that with their pet, breeding is hard and scary, and nobody should feel required to do so. If I don't want to keep and breed her myself, I would place her with someone with the understanding that they might consider breeding if she turns out, and I would like to be consulted on that choice (I'm assuming this is a novice. If I were placing a pup with an experienced breeder, I would go into it with different expectations, and would probably be co-owning.) If they did choose to breed, and I decided I wanted a pup for myself, I'd either buy it from them, or they could choose to give it to me out of the kindness of their hearts.

For myself, I wouldn't take a bitch pup I was required to breed. I would want to see how she turned out. I would be open to giving the breeder a puppy if I did choose to breed, depending on how much I paid for her.

With a dog, I don't feel as strongly about that, because the burden of the breeding is not on the stud owner. I'd still want to be comfortable that they knew what they were letting themselves in for. I would either get the health testing done myself, at my own expense, or they could choose to pay for it if they preferred using their own vet. (I don't want to wind up paying $400 for OFAs when I know I can get them done for $200) I would expect to not pay a stud fee to use him on my own bitch.

If I were getting a male pup myself, I would agree to terms like that.
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:06 AM
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I know alot of people who work just fine in those kinds of contracts, myself and several of my peers included in that.

Miz Naughty was brought over here to America from overseas when she was 14 weeks old specifically to be added to my mentor's breeding program, so when I got her, I knew I was keeping her in tact for a reason and I've never had any huge issue doing that.

When it was time to breed her, my mentor and I become co-breeders on Miz Naughty's first (and will be her only) litter and from that came my new puppy, Lil' Sis.

I paid for all of Miz Naughty's health testing, all of her vet bills, all of the classes we took together, the progesterone testing for the litter, the stud fee, the shows we did, and I got pick puppy and the lion's share of the money from the litter.

Now, if my mentor wanted to ever lease Lil' Sis from me in the future, I'd totally let her do that free of charge because I know she's responsible. Now in that case, she would have to pay for everything because that's just how leasing works.

The only male puppy from the litter my mentor could use free of charge and that would be up to her and the puppy's owner as he is owned out right. But, she's mentoring his owner as welll, so that would likely never be an issue.

I will say it's different when you place a dog or a bitch in a pet home with no aspirations of them being shown, or otherwise titled. If the owner WANTS to show them and has aspirations of breeding then that's another ball of wax.

Everyone has to be on board and on the same page.

My mentor has one girl she just bred who is in a pet home. She has a few points, but kind of like my girl isn't really what judges are looking for although she does have some really strong merits.

In that case, the family is paying for literally nothing. They kept the dog in tact as a favor to do this one litter and that's payment enough. This bitch is their family dog, and everyone knows how risky breeding is.

I don't know if they're getting a puppy from the litter, but I'm going to bet that they'll probably want something back, which they'll also get for free.

So, just my opinion. Depends on the goals of the people you're working with and your goals and making sure everyone has the correct expectations and knows the risks involved.
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:13 AM
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I guess I should also throw out there that I do NOT engineer my own breedings.

My mentor threw out a list of dogs she thought would work. We researched temperament, health issues, structure and when it was time to make a decision it was between two dogs and I made the final call.

And the same thing will happen when it's time to breed Lil' Sis; if my mentor had wanted a puppy rather then her cash share of the litter, I would have obliged her.
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:39 PM
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I'm just so not into the puppy back business. Many people get scammed that way. I know of breeders who do this pyramid puppy thing where they sell a bitch pup on a puppy back agreement, take back one or more bitch puppies, and sell those on a puppy back agreement, etc. They can make good money doing that, but in my opinion, it's not ethical.

I also know a person who got a bitch from a certain breeder, paying full price. Showed the bitch to her championship, and after consulting other people in the breed, decided she really wasn't worth breeding. To get out of her puppy back agreement, she had to pay for the bitch again.

My own introduction to breeding was with a bitch that I did not get with intention of breeding. I got her for pet/sport, and decided to try showing, since the breeder said I could. Tully didn't do well in shows, but I eventually decided she had strong virtues that the breed could use, and considered breeding her. She was co-owned, since the breeder doesn't let intact dogs out on full ownership. I contacted her, she didn't have a problem with Tully being bred, and suggested a couple stud dogs for me to choose from. I was glad of the help.

I picked the best one, who was available through frozen semen, and did a surgical AI. Tully conceived, and the X-ray showed 6 puppies. The next day (a few days early), she went into labor and delivered 4 very small puppies, then stopped contracting. I called the emergency vet (weekend), and the person who answered the phone told me not to worry. I worried. After a couple more hours, I called the emergency number at the vet where the AI was done, and the vet there was very concerned. He told me he'd meet me at the clinic.

4 tiny puppies in a box, a still-pregnant bitch, and me loaded up in my 2wd pickup and drove 25 miles on ice to the vet hospital. The vet tried for awhile to induce labor, finally calling another vet to come in and help with a C-section. At which point she finally popped out one very dead puppy with a leg pinned back (the holdup), and another dead pup that had been stuck behind it.

At which point the vets got worried about the 4 tiny puppies in a box, which weren't doing as well as they thought they should, and started working on them. They finally sent me home with equipment and instructions for tube feeding. I went home, and over the next 36 hours, watched 3 tiny puppies die. The first to die was the biggest, strongest seeming puppy. Finally I was down to one. Who turned into the fattest puppy in the universe, and eventually became my Tess. After 4 weeks or so, I finally stopped thinking she'd drop dead at any moment, and named her.

There's no way I'd force someone else to go through that. If somebody wants to breed, and is aware of the hazards, okay, but I would never, ever tell someone they had to risk their beloved pet because I wanted a puppy out of her. My Tully could easily have died in her horrible whelping, if I'd followed the advice at the e-vet, or under anesthesia during the C-section if she'd waited 5 more minutes before popping out those 2 dead puppies.

I didn't pay for Tully, btw, she was given to me by the breeder. Who also offered to give me another puppy, if I didn't want to breed Tully. She wouldn't have required me to breed that one, either.

Now, in Tess' litter, I did have trouble choosing between my 2 live pups (I lost one at birth). I eventually picked Pirate, but I did really like his litter sister. Still do. Would have loved to have pups from her, but the person I placed her with doesn't want to breed, and there's no way I'd force it. I could have looked for a home that would be willing to breed, but I wasn't going to keep her from the best home in the world because I want pretty stripey puppies.
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Old 08-14-2013, 06:19 AM
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So, if I owned a stud I guess what I would be happy with would be if the contract obligated studding the dog back it should also state what the bitch will be- ofa and cerfed, show dog? Working dog? Blah blah blah. I would want limited number of breedings and a say in the breedings. They would only have to pay for collection for shipping and not health testing if I was planning on breeding the dog to other bitches.

If I wasn't into breeding and was only doing this for the breeder then I would like them to cover health testing since I wouldn't be testing otherwise (or I would test because of a problem but then I wouldn't be breeding otherwise).

But I still have a lot to learn about dogs and the breeding world so this could all change.

For a bitch there is no way I would ever sign a must breed contract. Even if I had a breed worthy bitch I am hesitant to stud let alone welp.
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