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Old 07-15-2013, 05:56 PM
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Default Structural discussion

Thought his might be interesting to some. Here's just a few random thoughts and questions I've had recently about structure particularly in regards to agility.

1. Would being under-angulated in the rear cause less fluid movement at a walk? I've noticed especially in Aussies that dogs that move well at a trot seem pretty disjointed at a walk. The reason I ask is that Mia moves similarly. Beautiful flowing trot and covers ground very fast. She runs with good extension and is fast for her size. She also seems to wiggle and bounce in a way Aussies seem to do a lot. I've seen several Aussies with this same movement type and I was wondering- too straight in the rear? Hope I explained well enough.

2. What problems would severe cow hocks cause potentially? I saw the worst cow hocked border collie recently. The dog was very down in the rear when standing with the hock joint together and feet splayed out. Looked uncomfortable but it seemed to run fast. Didn't look young either.

3. ETS ever seen in poodles? It is a one-two stutter step right? Any other cause?

4. When viewing a dog from the front moving at a trot towards you and the dog is swinging the rear legs out away from the body with every step is that a potential sign of HD?
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Old 07-15-2013, 06:01 PM
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And for 1 I am meaning there is a lot of movement in the rear itself at a slow walk. Beau also IMO moves similarly.
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Old 07-15-2013, 06:02 PM
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3. ETS ever seen in poodles? It is a one-two stutter step right? Any other cause?
As far as I know, ETS can show up in any breed. I have seen cavs, shelties, bcs, an english shepherd, a lab, and a yorkie (just off the top of my head that I train with) who have shown signs of ETS.

My trainer is under the belief that it's a depth perception issue. These dogs compensate for not being able to tell where the jump is by doing a number of things--stutter stepping, slowing down, leaping way early, etc.
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Old 07-15-2013, 06:34 PM
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I've really been wondering if beau has depth perception issues. For a long time he's excessively over jumped things and now is crashing into things while doing so.
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Old 07-15-2013, 07:49 PM
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I've really been wondering if beau has depth perception issues. For a long time he's excessively over jumped things and now is crashing into things while doing so.
How does he do jumping onto (or off) the couch/bed? Telltale ETS sign is dogs who don't like to, or can't, do that.
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
Thought his might be interesting to some. Here's just a few random thoughts and questions I've had recently about structure particularly in regards to agility.

1. Would being under-angulated in the rear cause less fluid movement at a walk? I've noticed especially in Aussies that dogs that move well at a trot seem pretty disjointed at a walk. The reason I ask is that Mia moves similarly. Beautiful flowing trot and covers ground very fast. She runs with good extension and is fast for her size. She also seems to wiggle and bounce in a way Aussies seem to do a lot. I've seen several Aussies with this same movement type and I was wondering- too straight in the rear? Hope I explained well enough.
I think you mean over angulation in the rear. I often see dogs with big angles in the rear and straight front (or straighter than their rear). Those dogs often have BIG side gait.

I was always taught that a well put together dog moves equally at a slow trot vs a fast trot. People often gait dogs in the show ring too fast, and a fast gait hides faults, or at least makes them harder to pick out. Good movement is judged by triangles, there should be a triangle between the front legs, and a triangle between the rear legs. The triangles should be equal, which indicated equal front and rear angulation.

Example
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Old 07-15-2013, 09:16 PM
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How does he do jumping onto (or off) the couch/bed? Telltale ETS sign is dogs who don't like to, or can't, do that.
Takes him several times. It's odd. He also crashes into things a lot by over-jumping them. Like... the back door at my dad's old house. He's been jumping that for ages (it's a few inch height difference). But now he jumps and lands on top of it.

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I think you mean over angulation in the rear. I often see dogs with big angles in the rear and straight front (or straighter than their rear). Those dogs often have BIG side gait.
v
I was always taught that a well put together dog moves equally at a slow trot vs a fast trot. People often gait dogs in the show ring too fast, and a fast gait hides faults, or at least makes them harder to pick out. Good movement is judged by triangles, there should be a triangle between the front legs, and a triangle between the rear legs. The triangles should be equal, which indicated equal front and rear angulation.

Example
Hmmm these dogs are definitely not over-angulated. Is side gait not more of what I was saying in #4?
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Old 07-16-2013, 06:03 AM
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Takes him several times. It's odd. He also crashes into things a lot by over-jumping them. Like... the back door at my dad's old house. He's been jumping that for ages (it's a few inch height difference). But now he jumps and lands on top of it.



Hmmm these dogs are definitely not over-angulated. Is side gait not more of what I was saying in #4?
I didn't necessarily mean that the rear was over angulated. I mean in comparison to their front angulation their rear was over done.

So say a dog is very straight front and rear, their movement could still be balanced, but a dog who has a very straight front and a moderate rear would appear less balanced on the move. These dogs compensate by moving faster at a trot. The rear may overstep the front, or can swing out so as not to hit the front feet, the dog can appear to be crabbing, or the dog may lift the front more than necessary.

One single structural fault can cause lots of different movement issues, especially when movement takes into account the entire skeleton and musculature of the dog, not just one part.
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:40 PM
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This is a really great discussion! Just today watching agility I saw a very interesting jumping style from a mutt, he almost looked "top heavy", I wish I could have gotten it on camera because it's very hard to describe, but I did notice also when he walked out of the ring, he was lower on his front end. But it really looked like he was throwing him front half over the jump landing hard and his rear was a displaced object following along.

And as to the trotters, I know that when you walk Enda at a slower pace than a trot, she "paces" as they say in the show ring, instead of the legs on opposite sides moving, the legs on the same side move together, and I know it looks bad and bouncy or choppy.
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Old 07-21-2013, 07:35 PM
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And as to the trotters, I know that when you walk Enda at a slower pace than a trot, she "paces" as they say in the show ring, instead of the legs on opposite sides moving, the legs on the same side move together, and I know it looks bad and bouncy or choppy.
I noticed this with my mom's dog on Friday.
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