Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dogs - General Dog Chat


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 06-18-2013, 01:28 AM
D&Co D&Co is offline
Puppy Dog
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 56
Default

i think the problem is when people talk about standards they are almost exclusively refering to shape, size, weight, color..ie phenotype.

most standards also state other aspects which go largely ignored by breeders breeding and selling purebred puppies as long as the dogs are safe and easy to handle and will fit into most families without any fuss.

the reason is breeding for colour, shape etc is because it is easy and requires the lowest level of breeding hence anyone can basically get two dogs breed them the right shape color etc.

breeding a dog to do what it is/was invented for takes a higher level of knowledge, skill, work, testing......hence it is easier to not do it, and there is the problem, the airheads always win.

there are more high level purebred working dogs than most people would beleive that are not quiet purebred cos the priority is the work not the colour and the shape.

as most traditional roles have disspeared sport is a good next best thing imo, i would def financially support a sport breeder over a standard breeder if they have the better dog for the job.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 06-18-2013, 02:10 AM
JennSLK's Avatar
JennSLK JennSLK is offline
F150 and a .30-06
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Alberta
Posts: 6,956
Default

Lets not turn this into another working vs show thread.

I'm have no issues with people breeding for a certain thing. You go to a breeder who suits you. If you want a working dog you look for working titles, same goes for sport or show.

However some things in a standard are there for a reason. For example doberman size. If you loose sight of the standard a lot of things happen. Too big and they have more joint issues, as well as loosing the agility that makes them what they are.

I also find a lot of dogs bred strictly for sport are a bit too nuts. Alot lack a off switch.

If you look around it is not hard to find a good middle of the road breeder
__________________



Sakkara's And Then There's Emma - My heart. My Soul. My Co-Pilot. Feb 26 2005 - Oct 22 2009
Can Ch Liberty's Surfer Girl TT - You will always be with me
Phil Ch Groundsniffin Secret Solo - National Specialty Winners Bitch, Multi Best Opposite In Show
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 06-18-2013, 05:26 AM
BostonBanker's Avatar
BostonBanker BostonBanker is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Vermont
Posts: 7,896
Default

Bringing it back a bit to breeding for out of standard dogs, rather than just show vs working/sporting, I suppose in theory I don't have a dog in the fight because I don't have a "breed". But looking at it from the outside, altering size in particular can look like the smart thing to do. We all know from studies of feral populations that dogs as a whole are meant to be about 30 - 40 lbs. We see in our purebreds the risks of breeding for the extremes on either end. If someone said "Let's put a little more size and substance on Italian Greyhounds so they didn't have to come with a warning to not let them jump off the bed, lest they break a leg" or "Since they no longer need to take down wolves, let's take a bit of weight and height off the Irish Wolfhound so they can live longer than 7 years and maybe walk past their fifth birthday"...where's the risk? A slightly larger Italian Greyhound can still be a super house pet. A 90 lb Irish Wolfhound can still do everything a wolfhound is supposed to do these days. At what point is the outcry of "Preserving the Breed!" selfish?

And now I have to leave for work so this will blow up and I won't be able to reply easiy.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 06-18-2013, 06:55 AM
sassafras's Avatar
sassafras sassafras is offline
such sights to show you
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 5,255
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
Bringing it back a bit to breeding for out of standard dogs, rather than just show vs working/sporting, I suppose in theory I don't have a dog in the fight because I don't have a "breed". But looking at it from the outside, altering size in particular can look like the smart thing to do. We all know from studies of feral populations that dogs as a whole are meant to be about 30 - 40 lbs. We see in our purebreds the risks of breeding for the extremes on either end. If someone said "Let's put a little more size and substance on Italian Greyhounds so they didn't have to come with a warning to not let them jump off the bed, lest they break a leg" or "Since they no longer need to take down wolves, let's take a bit of weight and height off the Irish Wolfhound so they can live longer than 7 years and maybe walk past their fifth birthday"...where's the risk? A slightly larger Italian Greyhound can still be a super house pet. A 90 lb Irish Wolfhound can still do everything a wolfhound is supposed to do these days. At what point is the outcry of "Preserving the Breed!" selfish?

And now I have to leave for work so this will blow up and I won't be able to reply easiy.

Aheheh. I'll put on my flame retardant suit, too, and join you. I've actually always been a bit bothered by the almighty standards. Standards are such a relatively modern invention, I think it's so unnatural to try to fix our created/desired traits to such a defined degree in an animal. As opposed to, as you've already pointed out, what nature comes up with when dogs are feral and traits useful to them instead of what we like are selected for.

I understand it, I really do. We fear change; it's human nature to love familiar things and want the things we love the way they are to... stay the way they are. And I can't fault anyone for loving a particular breed and its particular traits. But at the same time that kind of stasis isn't natural and I think it would be better for dogs in the long run to be a little more flexible about blurring the edges of the standards, as in your examples.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 06-18-2013, 07:41 AM
Laurelin's Avatar
Laurelin Laurelin is offline
I'm All Ears
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 28,373
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by D&Co View Post
Op mentioned about the original purpose of the pap, what is it?
Companionship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elegy View Post
Well, I have two sport-bred Border Collies, so I guess that answers that question. Neither is really "outside of the standard" but they'd look crazy out of place in the breed ring, especially Steve. BUt I love their drive and their enthusiasm. I regularly see people complain that sport dog breeders are breeding dogs who are too high, and maybe that is so, but I love my dogs, even STeven James who probably *is* what eople would consider "too high
I'll take him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyPug View Post
I just mean if I'm looking for a dog that might jump in the 16" class I want one that has a better chance of being a comfortable height for that class. For 16", shelties are perfect. Some measure over yes but the majority fall within the limits. I wouldn't want a pap that may be just over that 12" cutoff (its even shorter for ifcs worlds too, 11" and change I think for that class). I'd want a dog more in the 14-15" range to jump in the 16" class and I can't imagine having a pap that big! Izzie is only just over 12".
I think you'd be surprised! We went to a pap picnic when we still had Trey and several paps were bigger than he was. One of the best shelties around here is teeny. He's been to nationals and world tryouts a lot, multiple MACHs and I bet he doesn't weigh more than 12-13 lbs. He jumps preferred now but he's 13 years old, I believe.

Are you familiar with Livewire's dogs? They have one really big pap right now (Grinder), but I think he was just a giant when he was born. They show too and his siblings were normal sized. I'd love a well bred pap his size though.

I think I am totally biased as far as standards go. I do not mind people breeding to the larger end of the standard or slightly over it but am bothered by people breeding certain dogs that are within standard (technically). We don't have a minimum weight for our breed so I've seen dogs that are 3-4 lbs being bred and that bothers me. But it bothers me mostly because my preferences for the breed are in the 8+ lb range (and I think it's healthier/safer).
__________________
Mia and Summer
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 06-18-2013, 07:48 AM
Maxy24's Avatar
Maxy24 Maxy24 is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 7,660
Default

I guess to me the big draw of breeders is predictability. You've done all this research on a breed, what it will look like and act like, and have fallen head over heels in love. So you go to a breeder because you want a dog that is as close to possible as what you've researched. Size, color, coat, temperament, activity levels, etc. are all part of that. If you went to someone breeding that breed who was producing dogs very different from what you read, especially in temperament but also in physical aspects, you'd be really upset most likely. But I suppose if you researched the breeder you should have known they were going to be different ahead of time, so maybe it's not really ever going to be an issue. But if it doesn't really look or act like the original breed, is it still that breed? I guess that puts me with those who think if you're breeding away from standard, especially the temperament, perhaps a name change is in order.


I have no problem with breeding for sports, I just don't know how I feel about creating dogs that don't act like their breed. But with Paps I don't know if breeding for sports is changing their temperament or taking advantage of it, I don't know enough about them.
__________________
~Erin~



Thank you ~Dixie's Mom~ for my awesome siggy!
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 06-18-2013, 08:52 AM
Linds's Avatar
Linds Linds is offline
Twin 2
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 6,484
Default

I think this kinda gets down to what makes a breed a breed. Is it how they look? Is it a core temperament? Is it the ability to do a job? Can a dog become not a breed even when they come from a line of only that breed if they've diverted enough from the original breed?

Maybe it's because I'm coming from a breed with no real standard but I just don't mind wide variety of type. Breeders breed for the type of dog that fits what they want, for where they live to what they like. And still somehow the dogs all manage to have similar key traits even with the wide variety of size, ability and temperament.

I also don't understand really the pedestal that people place standards on. I think I've posted this here before but I find it to be just such an interesting piece that makes you think The Functional Saluki

But I guess what I'm saying is I have no issue with people breeding away from a standard for sport or work or even companionship. We created breeds, sometimes out of necessity for a job, sometimes out of loneliness and sometimes just to see if we could so I have no issue continuing that tradition and altering them to fit the current need.

But, I also don't mind having a large variety of type and split in a breed like I used to. Anymore I see it as useful honestly because it allows you to go a certain direction and find the right type of dog for your needs/wants inside a breed. It also allows people to have their working, show and sport types all within the breed.

So really, I just don't care if someone is breeding for sport, for show for companionship or for work. I'm not going to judge them on that but rather how they go about it, the dogs being produced and what I personally am looking for at the time.

Now, the next thing I have to say is NOT meant to rip on rescues at all so please no one take it like that.

And I find the idea of "just go get a rescue!" rather annoying. You are getting a dog of unknown stock. Even if you're getting a sport mix you know the parents and their lines so while it might be more unpredictable than going with an established breed you still are going to have a better idea of health and temperament if you go with a puppy.

If you go with a rescue adult you are, well, going with an adult which still gives you unknown health and ancestry but at least you have an idea of the temperament. That's not enough for a lot of people.

In addition you go with a rescue the dog is going to be altered (and possibly quite young at that) which, since you're getting said rescue for sport is also something I'm not comfortable with. I would rather the dog have at least been intact for 2/3 years if I'm going to be doing something physically intensive like sport.

So yes, you can find stumble upon, spend a long time looking and digging or luck out and get the perfect sport dog out of a rescue just like Boston has and if you want to do that more power to you. But I don't think the choices should be "Rescue or established purebred dog un-deviated from the standard."

ETA: Holy cow is this scattered, should not post when not thinking coherently.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 06-18-2013, 09:48 AM
Dizzy's Avatar
Dizzy Dizzy is offline
Ho ho ho off.
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Wales
Posts: 17,260
Default

I don't see what the issue is, unless a breeder is breeding ONLY for drive and not for some kind of type...

If you slung any collies together just based on sports ALONE soon you'd have some dogs that were something totally different from a collie.

JUST as you would if you ONLY bred for looks.

I don't mind if a breeder favours one thing above another at all, that is prerogative. I just think you have to be true to your breed and try and keep type and temperament as good as possible to what the breed is....

But then, part of me also thinks, why should I give a fcuk... It doesn't effect me... There's always going to be different types of breeders around to pick and choose from. It's not like they will ever intermingle.
__________________
"Dogs are our link to paradise. They do not know jealousy or discontent. To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing wasn't boring, it was peace."


Bodhi is the opposite of ignorance, the insight into reality which destroys mental afflictions and brings peace.

Owned by Bodhi Booglaoo and Fredington Holbein


Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 06-18-2013, 10:04 AM
Cardiparty's Avatar
Cardiparty Cardiparty is offline
Big Dog
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 166
Default

I think there are alot of different ways to interpret the standard. Just because you do a breeding that you think will work doesn't always mean it will.

You can do health testing, carefullly select for correct temperament, structure, type, movement...and still end up with a litter that surprises you.

Just saying.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 06-18-2013, 10:14 AM
OwnedByBCs's Avatar
OwnedByBCs OwnedByBCs is offline
Will Creep For Sheep
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 588
Default

My personal feelings? I don't like it or support it. I think that sport breeding has done a lot of damage to this breed, and I feel that sport bred dogs are just as far away from the original breed type (meaning English working dogs) as show-bred dogs.

However- I have come to the realization that Border Colles cannot be bred strictly for herding forever. I tend to sell one puppy out of every litter to a serious working home, and the rest to to performance/SAR/show homes. Herding is not a really important job anymore, the sheep industry is crashing, and what are all these herding breeds going to do? Probably sports- and I think that's the road were headed down. I don't like it, but I know that is where we are headed.
__________________

www.brigadoonbordercollies.com
http://brigadoonbc.wordpress.com/

Do you want your dog to respect you because you demanded it, or because you truly earned it?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:07 AM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site