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  #101  
Old 06-20-2013, 12:45 AM
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Paviche Paviche is offline
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Plus there's a huge difference between breeding for a specific look + ability and standardizing is, vs "designer breeds." The "every breed used to be a mix" thing is one of my least favorite arguments. Yeah, but they weren't trying to breed mixes, they were crossbreeding to achieve a specific desired goal. Not even similar to modern day designer dogs, whose goal seems to typically be fluffy and nonshedding and... that's it. I am generalizing here, I know that there are other types of designer dogs, but really. von Stephanitz wanted a medium-large, close coated, prick eared dog with exceptional intelligence, drive and working capability to be used for shepherding and then evolved into protection dogs, patrol dogs, etc etc etc. I would not call that a "designer dog" and the fact that he originally crossbred to achieve those dogs is basically irrelevant because he was going for a very specific goal.
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  #102  
Old 06-20-2013, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D&Co View Post
How so, is that a genuine question?

think about how any breed started.


to prev. question
Yes, I would like an explanation as to how a German shepherd qualifies(d) as a designer dog.
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  #103  
Old 06-20-2013, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D&Co View Post
How so, is that a genuine question?

think about how any breed started.


to prev. question
HUH? Just because 2 people have a reason, doesn't mean they are remotely similar. One developed a sturdy working dog capable of bringing down 200+lb sheep that challenged them. Able to work as a moving fence to keep hundreds of large sheep contained. To work well with and independent of the handler and also be able to protect not only the flock, but the herder, home and property as well.

It took the cooperation of hundreds of people across a country carefully selecting and breeding dogs with the traits they desired and in a relatively short time, they had a breed that would breed "true" The developed a parent organization, stud books and a standard.

The other wanted to make up cute names and fluffy dogs they could market to an every increasing marke that doesn't give a **** about anything more than fluff these days. a decade or more later and they're still breeding F1 crosses because they can't make anything past that that will look like anything the public might want to buy. In essence they have failed at every stated goal they may have had and continue to breed mixed breed dogs and slap cute names on them

Yeah, they're totally the same
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  #104  
Old 06-20-2013, 08:47 AM
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I really hate the whole "all breeds started out as mixes" argument. It is absolutely not applicable to the designer breed argument, because the process is totally different. Labradoodles that are bred are most often gen 1 Poodle x Lab mixes rather than breeding Labradoodles to Labradoodles. How is this an attempt to start a "breed"? They did not develop any sort of a plan as to what the breed would be (is it a companion breed? A working breed? A hunting breed? How does one "prove" a Labradoodle?) , they took the easy way out and just decided to mix poodles and labs for the purpose of having a lab temperament in a hypoallergenic body- which 50% of them don't even have. Genetics don't just work that way, you can't just cherry pick which traits are passed down from the parents- which is why purebred breeding is so much more consistent (if done corectly). This also applies to sport mixes, who are bred to be successful at sports. To me, being "good" at flyball is a pretty complex thing- you need stamina, speed, quick turns, retrieving skills, control, biddability, solid jump skills, and balance... So while it may seem like sport crosses fill that niche, I have to wonder how may sport mixes don't make it. What if you got a BC rear with a more upright Whippet shoulder assembly? Or what if you got the topline of a Staffy and the angles of a Border Collie? My problem with mixing these breeds like it's no big deal is that these breeds were developed for entirely different purposes- and therefore have incredibly different structure and temperaments. What happens to the dogs that get an unfortunate mix of traits (I.E. Dog aggression inherited from the Staffy side, reactivity/shyness inherited from the BC side)? If a sport mix is not cut out for sports, can it be a normal, well adjusted member of society?

The purebred dogs we have today were developed by mixing breeds, yes, but they did it over years and years, with a clear goal in mind, and they achieved that goal by bringing in multiple breeds and really being consistent and strict with their breeding decisions. An example of that in current times is the Silken Windhound- which is already showing a lot of consistency due to the determination of people within the breed.
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  #105  
Old 06-20-2013, 09:26 AM
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To be fair, some crosses are surprisingly consistent even as F1s - cockapoos, puggles, and goldendoodles/labradoodles are like that in my experience (and we see a LOT of all three of them up here). And there are breeders trying to establish some of the doodles as a breed with fixed traits.

Realistically, all purebreds DID start out as "mixes" although for some of them IMO it is maybe more more correct to say they started out as "types" that people later refined.

Anyway, the counter argument of "but breeds were created with a goal in mind" always seems a little disingenuous to me because when people DO try to create a new breed then I see a chorus of "there are plenty of breeds out there already to choose from, nobody needs to create more!" Danged if you do, danged if you don't.

As someone else said, I don't really care if the end product is mixed, designer, pure, sport, working, show, whatever... it's more the practices of an individual breeder that I would or wouldn't take issue with.
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  #106  
Old 06-20-2013, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
To be fair, some crosses are surprisingly consistent even as F1s - cockapoos, puggles, and goldendoodles/labradoodles are like that in my experience (and we see a LOT of all three of them up here). And there are breeders trying to establish some of the doodles as a breed with fixed traits.

Realistically, all purebreds DID start out as "mixes" although for some of them IMO it is maybe more more correct to say they started out as "types" that people later refined.

Anyway, the counter argument of "but breeds were created with a goal in mind" always seems a little disingenuous to me because when people DO try to create a new breed then I see a chorus of "there are plenty of breeds out there already to choose from, nobody needs to create more!" Danged if you do, danged if you don't.

As someone else said, I don't really care if the end product is mixed, designer, pure, sport, working, show, whatever... it's more the practices of an individual breeder that I would or wouldn't take issue with.
See, I don't mind new breeds being made, I just feel like doodles and sport mixes aren't new breeds.

I see a lot of sport mixes being bred responsibly, and I have a lot less of an issue with that, but I have yet to see a responsibly bred doodle, cockapoo, puggle, etc.. so, I'm just not convinced.
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  #107  
Old 06-20-2013, 09:48 AM
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Cockapoos have been around since the 50s. Both cockapoos and labradoodles have breed clubs. I've seen plenty of doodle and cockapoo breeders that health test.
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  #108  
Old 06-20-2013, 09:57 AM
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We have two lovely Goldendoodles at work from the same breeder a few hours south of here. All breeding dogs are health tested and the breeder screens homes pretty extensively. Both dogs have great temperaments are exactly what their families were looking for, except maybe in coat maintenance.

God **** designer dogs!

*beyond caring at this point* lol I even added various poos and doodles to our breed database at work because I got tired of typing "Golden/Poodle." TEH HORRORZ
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  #109  
Old 06-20-2013, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
Cockapoos have been around since the 50s. Both cockapoos and labradoodles have breed clubs. I've seen plenty of doodle and cockapoo breeders that health test.
Maybe I'm just in a bad area, but all of the doodle breeders I've seen around here are typical BYBs who don't health test and don't do anything to prove their dogs. I would be interested in what health testing the breed club recommends, and what the breeders who do health test do. Is it CERF/OFA or are there more specific issues within those mixes?

I'm not saying that it can't be done responsibly, but I am still not convinced that it is a good idea. I know plenty of responsibly bred sport mixes, like I said, and while I accept that these breeders are responsible and ethical, I still don't agree with the premise. Kind of like being against show breeding or sport breeding within purebreds- you can recognize when someone is being responsible, but you don't agree with the decisions that led them to breed in the first place. You know?
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  #110  
Old 06-20-2013, 10:03 AM
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I have no issue with the creation of mixes nor new breeds (which designer dogs are not) but I'm not sure how a GSD is a designer dog, that is where I am seeking clarity.
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Phelan du Loups du Soleil CGC RATI 6/15/13 -
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Arnold CGC TDI FD 6/29/04 - 07/05/13
Backup CGC HIC CD SRD SJ-N RATI 12/29/09 - 07/05/13

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