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  #241  
Old 05-13-2013, 11:10 PM
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I agree with Romy and RG, that I was never bitten by the family dog (or any dog for that matter) when I was a kid, despite me and my friends all having large, guardian breed dogs (boxer, GSD, rottweiler) that we would be alone with fairly young (can't exactly remember when). That said, I don't think it's out of place for a dog to lightly snap at someone who's being obnoxious, after giving warning (any other animal is allowed to "retaliate" within reason, why not a dog?).

But bites that occur within the normal scope of human activity, bites where a dog holds on, etc. aren't the same at all. And especially when that dog is tall enough to reach a kid's face (baby-toddler-small child). I know when Romey's tooth BANGED AGAINST MY LEG it left a huge bruise. And that wasn't even a bite! What would it look like if a medium sized dog grabbed a 4-year-old's face? if the dog didn't let go? I don't know if I'd "never forgive myself" but I'd feel pretty **** guilty if my kid was injured by something that I KNEW was a liability.
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  #242  
Old 05-14-2013, 04:17 AM
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I can add, I've also never been bitten by a dog... No family pets, no dogs on the street, no neighbours dogs and no dogs when I worked in a boarding kennels.

Our old family dog took an aversion to my sister however, and would herd her and nip at her. She also caught her face once and did leave a mark.

My mum tried to rehome her but was told she would be pts. So we kept her.

She wasn't unpredictable. She never snarled or tried to bite. She didn't aim her teeth at people randomly or eye ball them.

There's a huge difference here... I've read skittles past posts on bamm, and the tone is that she is concerned about his behaviour.

It doesn't sound like he nips in excitement or bit in a manic moment. She's concerned as he does this RANDOMLY.

Not everyone has the time or skills to work on it. If I had a biter, I don't think I'd feel comfortable trying to fix it..... I don't know, I hope I don't ever get in that situation!!
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  #243  
Old 05-14-2013, 05:49 AM
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Well... I guess I'm just that out of touch then. *shrug*
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  #244  
Old 05-14-2013, 07:35 AM
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Well... I guess I'm just that out of touch then. *shrug*
I don't think you're out of touch, I think its just a different viewpoint/mindset. We had a Chesapeake when I was growing up that bit my dad's boss (for reaching into the back of the truck) and my grandma (for trying to take her bowl of turkey). Both bites broke skin but putting her down was never mentioned. And in both cases the human was blamed, not the dog. I don't think it would have been much different if one of us kids had been bitten - as long as we provoked the bite anyway. Unprovoked biting and/or a mauling would be a different story.
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  #245  
Old 05-14-2013, 07:52 AM
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Well... I guess I'm just that out of touch then. *shrug*
Nope. Like I said I make a living working with dogs as such, they're no rarity. Many people do PTS but more work through it. Bites, or the use of the mouth by a dog, are far more common than those reported, especially with herding and working dogs ime. I have a lot of biting goldens and labs right now as well, it started as mouthing and now it's an inappropriate result of over stimulation. I have an Airedale that leaves huge welts and bruises because he redirects, seemingly without predictability.

Not everyone will work with a dog who's used their mouth in some form of expression be it a touch or a serious bite, some people put down or rehome puppies who mouth, but ime people who're willing to work outnumber the alternative cases as much as dog who do use their mouths outnumber those who will not. You're not out of touch.

The alternative of a completely unpredictable (attacking any gender, any age, the owner, other animals, any scenario with no seeming drive outside of spontaneous fear) is the rarity and where I presume most would PTS because that is likely a dog and who'd not be happy no matter the management due to living in a constant state of fear.
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  #246  
Old 05-14-2013, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Dizzy View Post
I can add, I've also never been bitten by a dog... No family pets, no dogs on the street, no neighbours dogs and no dogs when I worked in a boarding kennels.

Our old family dog took an aversion to my sister however, and would herd her and nip at her. She also caught her face once and did leave a mark.

My mum tried to rehome her but was told she would be pts. So we kept her.

She wasn't unpredictable. She never snarled or tried to bite. She didn't aim her teeth at people randomly or eye ball them.

There's a huge difference here... I've read skittles past posts on bamm, and the tone is that she is concerned about his behaviour.

It doesn't sound like he nips in excitement or bit in a manic moment. She's concerned as he does this RANDOMLY.

Not everyone has the time or skills to work on it. If I had a biter, I don't think I'd feel comfortable trying to fix it..... I don't know, I hope I don't ever get in that situation!!
Dizzy, that sounds more like herding behavior then true aggression that dog was showing on your sister. I have seen herding dogs "single out" a person for some reason or another.

Also, all of us can sit here & say what we would or would not do, but when it is our own dog, of course the prospective always changes because we are closer to it.

While I have never been bitten, I was "warned" a few times by the family dogs to back off; thats how I learned not to approach a dog when its eating their food or chewing on a bone or toy, LOL kind of when your mom tells you not to touch the stove because its hot
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  #247  
Old 05-14-2013, 08:09 AM
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I was never bitten by a dog growing up - and spent a good amount of time around them...but I was a very animal savvy child. None of my friends were ever bitten, either...but I do remember hearing adults say "if you don't leave the dog alone he's going to bite you".

A dog that bites after a warning, or a dog that nips (however hard) a child who is in it's face or touching it or cornering it, or who bites because someone tries to take something from it, through a fence, etc. is a whole different ballpark than a dog that jumps on and bites a child because it falls or screams or bites down and won't let go/repeats bites.

Some of those dogs can be managed in a knowledgable household, but they're never going to be a family pet the way the first category would be.
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  #248  
Old 05-14-2013, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Danefied View Post
Well... I guess I'm just that out of touch then. *shrug*
No, when I was a kid our dog would bite in certain circumstances. And we were pretty much told to leave the dog alone in those circumstances if we didn't want to get bitten. Granted, he was pretty predictable and in retrospect it was stuff like resource guarding that now as an adult with my own dogs I work on fixing.

I got a redirected bite from Pip once busting up a scuffle. I was stupid in the way I was intervening so it wasn't really a surprise. It turns out he has terrible bite inhibition, and fortunately I was wearing some heavy work gloves at the time so I was really just badly bruised. But I don't think he's an unpredictable ticking time bomb, either. I wouldn't pts or get rid of him over it.

For me personally, I would not feel an urgency to make a decision to preemptively PTS before a newborn infant comes home. Because the infant is not mobile and not capable of doing anything to the dog or of circumventing my management methods. I am an adult person and no matter how busy I am I am capable of management, especially if I set myself up for success like using spring-loaded hardware mounted baby gates. I wouldn't ever let a dog I was concerned about have direct access to an infant, but I wouldn't automatically PTS or rehome, either. I am very comfortable and confident in my management skills, though, having done it for a couple of years with my current dogs and for many, many years with a previous dog who was a very serious resource/food guarder with other pets in the home. It honestly just becomes automatic at a certain point.

What I would feel a sense of urgency about would be trying to look back and see, in retrospect, if there really were triggers and whether or not I could manage them, and I would enlist the help of a behaviorist to help me. I think a dog who really, truly bites completely randomly is very rare, but they do exist - and if I had one I need to know about it in order to proceed with making decisions from there.
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  #249  
Old 05-14-2013, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by milos_mommy View Post
I was never bitten by a dog growing up - and spent a good amount of time around them...but I was a very animal savvy child.
LOL... so was I. Plenty of dog savvy kids and adults get bitten.

Plus even though I was dog savvy, I was also a kid. One time a great dane bitch with puppies bit me, gently but firmly, telling me to leave the puppies alone. I knew perfectly well she didn't like me messing with the puppies but I just couldn't resist and I pushed too far and KNEW I was pushing too far.

IDK... I sometimes wonder if the prevalent attitude of no teeth on skin for any reason ever is not only unrealistic, but potentially counter productive?

Ian Dunbar writes about how dogs need to learn how to bite before they learn not to bite, and I see a lot of wisdom in this. Dogs need to have experience practicing controlling their jaws with humans. They need to know how delicat and fragile we are. Dogs can control their bite pressure in fractions of a second, but they won't learn to do this unless they get a chance to practice.

But that's kind of off topic to Bamm....
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  #250  
Old 05-14-2013, 08:57 AM
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LOL... so was I. Plenty of dog savvy kids and adults get bitten.

Plus even though I was dog savvy, I was also a kid. One time a great dane bitch with puppies bit me, gently but firmly, telling me to leave the puppies alone. I knew perfectly well she didn't like me messing with the puppies but I just couldn't resist and I pushed too far and KNEW I was pushing too far.

IDK... I sometimes wonder if the prevalent attitude of no teeth on skin for any reason ever is not only unrealistic, but potentially counter productive?

Ian Dunbar writes about how dogs need to learn how to bite before they learn not to bite, and I see a lot of wisdom in this. Dogs need to have experience practicing controlling their jaws with humans. They need to know how delicat and fragile we are. Dogs can control their bite pressure in fractions of a second, but they won't learn to do this unless they get a chance to practice.

But that's kind of off topic to Bamm....
Meh, dog savvy has nothing to do with bites and kids, it's a flaw in the logic.

I completely agree that his theory holds much on the subject. I will say I trust a properly trained bitesport and Bitework dog with its mouth more than the average pet being pressed.

There is a lot of value to not using suppression in foundations and instead training a dog what is appropriate in expressing themselves, I believe this assists in lessening these "unpredictable" cases which more often than not are not so much unpredictable but their signs have been suppressed and thus can be extreme hard to detect.

This shift in expectations and understanding can definitely help with management. It raises the bar for analyzing bites and detecting signs and tracking triggers.
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