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  #211  
Old 05-12-2013, 10:29 PM
ruffiangirl ruffiangirl is offline
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Originally Posted by JennSLK View Post
I ment in general
Ok, just wanted to clarify .
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  #212  
Old 05-12-2013, 10:39 PM
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I think having a small hand of people dealing with the same dogs on a daily basis and giving them the training, exercise, and diet/vetting that they need can go a long way, along with routine.
Very true, but I can't tell you how many "sanctuaries" I've run across where the dogs just sit in a cage all day, every day, because someone thinks that just being alive is enough. If they get enrichment, training, human interaction, etc. that's what will make all the difference, but it doesn't happen enough, and therefore I will always warn people that not all are the perfect option they are often touted as being.
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  #213  
Old 05-12-2013, 11:13 PM
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By that age, it had become abundantly clear to me that I never wanted to have kids, and I've never wavered on that. I still am not overly fond of kids (I can get along with well-behaved children).
Yep. It happens to some people.
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  #214  
Old 05-13-2013, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by stardogs View Post
Very true, but I can't tell you how many "sanctuaries" I've run across where the dogs just sit in a cage all day, every day, because someone thinks that just being alive is enough. If they get enrichment, training, human interaction, etc. that's what will make all the difference, but it doesn't happen enough, and therefore I will always warn people that not all are the perfect option they are often touted as being.
It was a very good point to make, I know there are places like that out there. Knowing what to look for and ask about because of this could help Amber a lot if she decides to explore this option.
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  #215  
Old 05-13-2013, 10:40 AM
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I have placed dogs who have a bite history. One recently passed away of old age and had a wonderful, wonderful 6 years with her family. She first lived with an elderly woman who passed away. The woman's daughter took her in and she bit (and I believe fairly badly) the daughter's husband when he reached into the back of an SUV she was in. The daughter was pretty open about the fact that her husband beat the dog "because that's what you have to do to sheep chasers". She was great with the two kids she lived with there, went trail riding with them often and was quite bonded to them. She was then sent to live with another family member on a farm, where she was not wanted or liked. When the kids she lived with came to visit, a family friend was over and rough housing with the kids (and adult man) and she bit him on the leg. Not badly but enough to lave a couple punctures. After that her owner told me she was going to shoot her and I took her in and rehomed her. Actually I had a lot of people who wanted her when I put her on the Aussie rehome/rescue page. She was well bred, very well behaved, good with kids and an all around great dog but a bit shy with strange men. The owner I got her from was told by local all breed rescues that they could not take the dog due to having a bite history. The national rescue seemed willing to take her but it ended up being easier to just place her on my own.

The other was a dog I took back from a litter I had who was very territorial. She's been in her home for 2 years now and they love her

I know quite a few really good, not really what I would ever call "aggressive" dogs who have bitten in various circumstances. Dogs do bite and while it isn't appropriate from a human standpoint, most dogs are pretty inhibited in their bites and very few are out to do serious damage. I do think that there are some dogs who are just not stable and that those dogs are not appropriate to be rehomed. But I don't think they are in the majority. IME most dog bites go unreported. I'm not saying there isn't liability to worry about but the idea that if a dog bites once for any reason they should die because they are now a huge liability is maybe a bit of an extreme viewpoint.

Now as for Bamm...I don't think one can really say if rehoming is or is not an option without knowing the details of the bites, observing the dog, etc. I too have known many rather...ummm...sketchy dogs who people thought they would have to rehome or euthanize once the baby came and the dogs ended up being great. I'm not suggesting to just hope for the best but it does sometimes work out. I think the idea of behavioral drugs and behavior modification are well worth pursuing and pursuing ASAP. And also keep in mind, we don't know what the future holds. Everyone has hopes and plans for the future but no one really knows what will happen. Do what you can to make Bamm safer around kids and strangers because it's the best thing to do for him. Because it will increase his quality of life and your's. But don't spend too much time stressing over possibilities that the future holds. Lots of things change, enjoy your time with your dog in the now and save the major decisions for when they actually have to made.

As for sanctuaries and no-kill options. There's good and bad like anything else. Dogs are very adaptable and I wouldn't be so quick to say "he would be too depressed without you" or "he would be miserable living in a sanctuary. Healthy animals do not want to die and the idea of them going peacefully in your arms is not always how it works out. I personally would probably exhaust all options before deciding that death was the only appropriate choice, unless the dog was truly unstable and "not right" (and I have no idea if that if the case with Bamm or not).
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  #216  
Old 05-13-2013, 10:57 AM
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There's a big, big different between a dog who's bitten because:

someone cornered it
someone was breaking up a dog fight
it was fence reactive and someone reached through
or even bit a child because that child was in it's face

and rehoming a dog that's had various bites, and seems to become aggressive, even towards family members, for an unknown reason or with random, unpredictable triggers.

Not every dog that bites is "unstable" or "aggressive". And not every aggressive dog is unstable. Bamm is, even with family, unpredictably aggressive, or at least unpredictably triggered. Rehoming him to an unprofessional would, IMO, be highly irresponsible (as well as legally risky).

Sanctuaries can be good and bad, and some dogs are appropriate to place in a sanctuary environment, and some are not. Personally, if I was in Amber's shoes and decided Bamm was unsafe in the home, I do not think I'd place him in a sanctuary.

A lot of sanctuaries ARE capable of providing the exercise and stimulation most dogs need. We have one run by our local shelter where dogs that are too much of a bite risk to be adopted out live. They are frequently in kennels, but each day they have a chance to run around in large, fenced, wooded areas. They can play with other dogs if they enjoy that, and if they are capable, spend time in a home-like office. Some are quite bonded to the volunteers.

However, a dog that craves human attention, bonding, praise...would probably not do well there. I don't know how Bamm is socially when he's not anxious or having issues. I know my own dog would be horribly depressed if he didn't have his own family or person to live for, even with interaction and playtime and exercise and places to explore. A more independent dog could surely find joy in frolicking among the trees and being taught tricks for snacks or toys by a volunteer that they see a few times a week.
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  #217  
Old 05-13-2013, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milos_mommy View Post
There's a big, big different between a dog who's bitten because:

someone cornered it
someone was breaking up a dog fight
it was fence reactive and someone reached through
or even bit a child because that child was in it's face

and rehoming a dog that's had various bites, and seems to become aggressive, even towards family members, for an unknown reason or with random, unpredictable triggers.
I would love to know the scenarios, if you know them, because I have not yet heard of a bite from Bamm that in hindsight could not have been worked on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by milos_mommy View Post
Not every dog that bites is "unstable" or "aggressive". And not every aggressive dog is unstable. Bamm is, even with family, unpredictably aggressive, or at least unpredictably triggered. Rehoming him to an unprofessional would, IMO, be highly irresponsible (as well as legally risky).
Again, what makes you comfortable in labeling Bamm as unstable?


The point of the matter is I can continue with bites and frankly when spun incorrectly I could make most dogs sound unstable online.

Sloan was on a 30 foot long line two years ago. Gary, our TD, grabbed the handle at the end of the leash and Sloan proceeded to walk up to him in a rather calm approach and bite him. She didn't want anyone grabbing her leash.

Unstable? Nope. She was a young malinois. Appropriate for an inexperienced home? Absolutely not. Impossible to work with or rehome? Absolutely not. Later that year she went for and passed her CGC without an issue.

Dogs use their mouths. If not taught what is appropriate and handled correctly it can get more and more frequent and more and more serious, especially if it is fear driven and the bite succeeds in the fear inducing person leaving or if it is excitement/demand driven and the bite succeeds in receiving their goal faster. So on, and so forth.

I could be off but I seem to recall an event where Bamm aggressed a man in the bushes once? This was rewarded with a relief feeling owner and likely praise. This couch incident, all be it long ago, sounds merely like resource guarding not instability. I can't recall other bites so I can't even begin to label him. The fact he was laying on the bed and looked uncomfortable and ready to bolt could mean so many things and I would seriously consider a vet visit if it persisted.

The point of the matter is Bamm may be unstable but he may not be and making an internet diagnosis isn't helping anyone.
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  #218  
Old 05-13-2013, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
I would love to know the scenarios, if you know them, because I have not yet heard of a bite from Bamm that in hindsight could not have been worked on.




Again, what makes you comfortable in labeling Bamm as unstable?


The point of the matter is I can continue with bites and frankly when spun incorrectly I could make most dogs sound unstable online.

Sloan was on a 30 foot long line two years ago. Gary, our TD, grabbed the handle at the end of the leash and Sloan proceeded to walk up to him in a rather calm approach and bite him. She didn't want anyone grabbing her leash.

Unstable? Nope. She was a young malinois. Appropriate for an inexperienced home? Absolutely not. Impossible to work with or rehome? Absolutely not. Later that year she went for and passed her CGC without an issue.

Dogs use their mouths. If not taught what is appropriate and handled correctly it can get more and more frequent and more and more serious, especially if it is fear driven and the bite succeeds in the fear inducing person leaving or if it is excitement/demand driven and the bite succeeds in receiving their goal faster. So on, and so forth.

I could be off but I seem to recall an event where Bamm aggressed a man in the bushes once? This was rewarded with a relief feeling owner and likely praise. This couch incident, all be it long ago, sounds merely like resource guarding not instability. I can't recall other bites so I can't even begin to label him. The fact he was laying on the bed and looked uncomfortable and ready to bolt could mean so many things and I would seriously consider a vet visit if it persisted.

The point of the matter is Bamm may be unstable but he may not be and making an internet diagnosis isn't helping anyone.
I agree with avoiding internet diagnosis, but I do have to say I wouldn't compare a Malinois, a breed known to be unforgiving of owner mistakes, to most dogs. My dog hasn't bitten me hard( playful mouthy, yes) ever since he was a puppy. He is definitely not a perfect dog. He is actually very shy and insecure, but still, he never bitten any of us, even in more stressful situations. Is he capable? 100%. There have been times, especially when I try cutting his nails, where he has shown that he is willing to bite, so I'm not saying it is impossible. But reading some of the reasons both dogs bite, I would be very alarm if a pit bull, for example, reacted the same way your dogs did. In fact, Malinois seem like a breed bred for useable instability.
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  #219  
Old 05-13-2013, 12:56 PM
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Useable instability? What does that mean?
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  #220  
Old 05-13-2013, 01:02 PM
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I'm not sure comparing bamm to dogs trained for bite work and owned by people who train those dogs is really helpful either.

If this thread was about bamm being a bite work dog... Maybe.

This is about adding a baby... Your dogs have bitten you and you're ok with that.

Would you forgive them if a child was bitten?

If skittle is going to take bamm to intensive bite work type classes whilst pregnant or with a baby, then she's a better woman than many I know!!

Realistically erring on the side of caution is helpful when you add kids to any mix, rather than giving the benefit of the doubt.

I'm sure she knows bamm more than anyone, I don't think its helpful to say my dog bit and theyre ok, and we are ok.

You own dogs you want to bite and you are a dedicated bite work trainer.

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