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  #31  
Old 04-09-2013, 03:22 PM
SizzleDog SizzleDog is offline
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
These dogs were grabbing and yanking the line with the lure, I guess it threw the puli more than once? It happened at the ABLSA events, it's very possible their set up is different than AKC.
I see more sighthounds tackle the lure than non-sighthounds... the whippets especially!

I have a friend with a dobe who grabs the line, and she tells the judge and lure operator beforehand so everyone is prepared. Works out just fine.



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  #32  
Old 04-09-2013, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyinsbt View Post
Well, I don't have any of the blogs, etc, that Adrianne was asking for, but since we're all discussing it, I'll wade in.

I do the CAT test with my non-coursing breed, and I'm okay with my dogs not being allowed to compete in the true coursing. It's a safety thing, and a fairness thing. The CAT test has less sharp angles, and the dogs run separately, both of which are hugely safer. (I talked to someone who knew of a Whippet that died during a coursing event when it was T-boned by another dog.) Also, in coursing competitively, the dogs are matched up by breed. Borzoi run against Borzoi, Basenjis run against Basenjis, etc. How would you do that fairly if you were allowing all breeds and mixes?

There is an all-breed coursing organization that has competitive coursing, but I'd be a little uncomfortable with it because of the safety angle. I know when I run Tess, she's going to be only interested in chasing the bag. What's my guarantee that the other dog out there is going to be the same?

I do kind of wish that there was a "higher" level of titling, in that the CAT test is pass/fail, which is great, but it would be nice if Tess' superlative performance could win her a little more than a dog that just barely scrapes by. However, that could be complex to set up, and might not meet a lot of support, so I'm okay with it how it is.

I wish that some of the other sports were open to dogs that can do the activity. A lot of non-herding breeds will herd, for instance, so I wish they could title in that if they can do the work. Most dogs won't fit down an earthdog tunnel, but if they will, and will do the work, why not let them? I was always sad that my Tully didn't get to play that game, which she would have loved. And I have a friend with a Miniature Bull Terrier who is bigger than Pirate, and does earthdog, so the "won't fit" argument doesn't hold. Some of the rules about which breeds can do a certain activity are sort of arbitrary.

Most likely, if herding, gundog events, etc, were open to all breeds, there wouldn't be many off-breeds participating anyway. But I still wish that those who wanted to, could. I will say though, that I don't find myself caring as much these days, with so many things available to all dogs.

Well as far as the safety aspect goes... That's a personal decision that should be made by the owner. If you don't feel comfortable letting your dog run the course... don't let your dog run the course.

I guess I don't see how your dog would get hurt much more than just running around without a lure to chase? The only difference is the line, which is supposed to be set up to not cause injury, but accidents happen. (Pretty big difference but I've seen Gwen trip plenty of times in the yard... over herself. ) It really just seems like a decision the owner has to make and not something that should be made by the coursing people. "Your dog might get hurt" is kind of a BS reason, anyway.

And matching dogs by breed makes sense but if you want to but a Zoi against Gwen, go for it. I let her run the course because she WANTED to. I didn't care about 'winning'.

I assume you're trying to answer the question and bring up some opposing viewpoints and I didn't mean to attack you. Just seems like a lot of the reasons that have been brought up are either a personal choice or ridiculous.

Gwen's just gotten into coursing and I'm hoping we don't have to stop because the sighthound people get pissy. (So far the coursing people have been pretty nice and welcoming. They even invited me to their monthly meeting.) I didn't realize there was so much drama.
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  #33  
Old 04-09-2013, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Airn View Post

I guess I don't see how your dog would get hurt much more than just running around without a lure to chase? .
A dog that is seriously coursing is running much harder than a dog will when just running around. And even just running around, I cringe at the things my dogs do when running together.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNhbhq0-5Xc

Specifically, watch from about 4:05.

My biggest concern if running my dogs with another dog at a coursing event wouldn't be the potential for injury from crashing into each other, though. It would be the fact that I don't know those dogs, and how serious they are about chasing. Tess will not redirect off the lure, but what if the other dog does? What if it decides that little black dog would be easier to catch than the stupid lure? Sighthounds have been bred for centuries to run together, not all breeds have that.

It's no big deal, we have the CAT, and I'm happy with it.
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  #34  
Old 04-09-2013, 04:22 PM
SizzleDog SizzleDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Flyinsbt View Post
A dog that is seriously coursing is running much harder than a dog will when just running around. And even just running around, I cringe at the things my dogs do when running together.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNhbhq0-5Xc

Specifically, watch from about 4:05.

My biggest concern if running my dogs with another dog at a coursing event wouldn't be the potential for injury from crashing into each other, though. It would be the fact that I don't know those dogs, and how serious they are about chasing. Tess will not redirect off the lure, but what if the other dog does? What if it decides that little black dog would be easier to catch than the stupid lure? Sighthounds have been bred for centuries to run together, not all breeds have that.

It's no big deal, we have the CAT, and I'm happy with it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that video is of LGRA racing. Their lure not only has a fluttering bag, but also has a squawker... much more prey-like than what they use in AKC. LGRA requires the use of muzzles.

I would worry about redirection, especially with breeds that haven't been breed to "hunt" in this manner. But IMO redirection is something the sighthound people have to consider as well. (Pssst sighthound folks on this board! Is that correct? )
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  #35  
Old 04-09-2013, 04:49 PM
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In regards to both the CAT and higher level lure coursing being the same do those who can only get CAT titles feel slighted? I mean if you are doing the same exact runs, why not get the same titles? If not, why is this okay?
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  #36  
Old 04-09-2013, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by SizzleDog View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that video is of LGRA racing. Their lure not only has a fluttering bag, but also has a squawker... much more prey-like than what they use in AKC. LGRA requires the use of muzzles.

I would worry about redirection, especially with breeds that haven't been breed to "hunt" in this manner. But IMO redirection is something the sighthound people have to consider as well. (Pssst sighthound folks on this board! Is that correct? )
that is LGRA or NOTRA ( lgra doesnt run whippets, unless the club is specifically set up for it.

Redirecection is something to watch for. The AKC and ASFA used to require
that all dogs be muzzled when they run, and honestly I don't think it would be a bad thing. I have personally never seen any issues in coursing with dogs, most are so focused on the lure they dont care about the other dogs. In LGRA i've seen the borzois try to go after each other and inflict wounds on each other with the muzzles. Alot of coursing people do run their dogs muzzled, some thinks it helps focus others thinks it helps them to catch the dog if its a hard dog to catch ect
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:17 PM
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There was a Mal at a local CAT test who grabbed the lure and...wouldn't let go. No one got mad about it, it happened before they even started. Seven caught the lure while coursing and tried to kill it. I guess there was some yelling involved there, while Seven tried to run away with it LOL My friends Brittany will grab it, not want to drop it and try to run with it too. Again I've not really seen any kind of big deal made about it. A lot of the Whippets around here grab the lure too. If they pull too much, the line breaks but I really can't imagine the dog pulling on the line causing major damage to the equipment. CATs are harder on the equipment in that, so it puts more strain on the equipment. JCs do as well but around here, there are usually bigger CAT entries than JC entries.

The club that does CATs here is really welcoming. The hunt master has told me how much he loves seeing all the different breeds run and how some of them are better than a lot of the sighthounds. And the sighthound coursing people here seem to really love seeing the non-sighthounds performing well.
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  #38  
Old 04-09-2013, 05:46 PM
Saeleofu Saeleofu is offline
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In regards to both the CAT and higher level lure coursing being the same do those who can only get CAT titles feel slighted? I mean if you are doing the same exact runs, why not get the same titles? If not, why is this okay?
It's a bit annoying, but nothing I'm really going to stress over. The CAT course is SUPPOSED to be different, it just usually isn't because of the way it's run (everything all mixed together, they'd have to change the course all the time...or get more organized). Gavroche is SUPPOSED to run the shorter CAT course even (half distance), but he still runs the full course.

Honestly, I would not be surprised if coursing is either opened up to all breeds eventually, or a separate set of titles (aside from CAT titles) are introduced for other breeds that mimics sighthound competition. Of all the sports, coursing seems more open to expanding.
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  #39  
Old 04-09-2013, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
In regards to both the CAT and higher level lure coursing being the same do those who can only get CAT titles feel slighted? I mean if you are doing the same exact runs, why not get the same titles? If not, why is this okay?
I don't feel slighted, mostly because a CAT run is not judged like actual competitive lure coursing. CATS are judged solely on whether or not the dog pursues the lure "with enthusiasm and without interruption within a stated maximum amount of time." ... it's pass/fail.

Competitive lure coursing for sighthounds is judged based on overall ability, speed, endurance, agility, and follow. You earn advanced titles by placing in your class, and by scoring higher than other hounds.

The JC seems to be about the same as a CA... it's a pass/fail title requiring two passing runs. (The CA requires three.) The SC and MC are also basically a pass/fail (as far as I can tell)... but earning a FC (Field Championship) requires being scored higher, against other hounds. And from what I can tell, the FC is what most sighthound people are working towards. The JC/SC/MC just sort of "happen" in the pursuit of the FC.

Sighthound people please correct me if I'm wrong - I'm just basing this on what I've seen while helping release dogs and talking to folks at trials.
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  #40  
Old 04-09-2013, 05:57 PM
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I tend to not be a seriously competitive person, but I love the CAT and I don't feel slighted at all. I actually like the simplicity of the pass/fail and that one dog runs at a time. The club here that does it has been super friendly and helpful and it was a really, really good time. It was my very first trial in anything, ever, and it was nice to have such a positive experience.
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