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  #21  
Old 03-08-2013, 01:34 AM
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MericoX MericoX is offline
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I would be mad and frustrated if someone was making it so I hurt myself...
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  #22  
Old 03-08-2013, 01:45 AM
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You definitely need to get him into a home ASAP that can train him properly. You are teaching him that people are bad and using nothing but aversive methods to get him to stop, which are unnatural to dogs and HURT.

When he's biting, don't shove him away, scruff him, alpha roll him or shove your hand down his throat... Grab a treat and ask for a sit instead, reward, do a hand touch and then ENGAGE in a game of tug with a toy with him. You're moving and his toys aren't and he can't be expected to entertain himself at this age. Everything good comes from you like food and play and nothing bad.
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  #23  
Old 03-08-2013, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DianeRushMav View Post
I am located in MD.

I have recently contacted a rescue (Jasmine's House) and I am just waiting to hear back - its the only one I found that has a surrender option, and I am in the process of still looking around.

If anyone knows of rescues, I would love information! I am hoping to find him a place within a few weeks. I don't know how rescues work, if they will take dogs that fast or not. My mom wants to take him to the shelter, but I don't want to. My county shelter is filled with mostly Pit-bulls and they wont adopt them out to families with kids or other pets.
Ask to talk to Leslie. She's a foster there. Tell her Stef asked if she can take the pup off your hands for you when she has room for a foster. Her dogs will socialize him for you just fine, and he will go to a great home.

I don't have Leslie's number any more, I think, but I'll get into contact with her tomorrow for you if I can.
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Old 03-08-2013, 12:03 PM
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*IF* I could get him into my very pit savvy rescue up here (New York), where he'd be fostered by someone experienced, and could arrange transport, would you be willing to send him here?

(It's a big if, because the director (who would probably foster the pup himself) just made a big statement about how many calls he gets a day and how he can't possibly take in every dog, etc....but he likes me, and he likes puppies, and this is a pretty easy fix - pup would probably get adopted fairly quickly, and he'd offer long-term training for any adopter, so I'll ask if you'd be willing to send him here).
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  #25  
Old 03-08-2013, 03:20 PM
DianeRushMav DianeRushMav is offline
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DJEtzel, Hes 8-9 weeks old, I am still shaping his sit and other behaviors but he has the attention span of a leaf and we aren't exactly making leaps and bounds with that. Not to mention, when he plays, he gets REALLY into it. Ask a puppy who knows ZERO commands and is over their threshold to sit. What do you get? Someone overusing a command and letting that command lose its value. I am not going to do that. I dont think its wrong to remove his jaw from me at any point. I dont think its wrong to gently push him away when he is latching himself on me. I already said I stopped with putting his gum under his teeth when he would bite me. I have scruffed him, but not aggressively, and I have no alpha rolled him or shoved my hand down his throat to make him stop biting me. I do however, want him to not get frustrated when I put my hand on his jaw, which he has always done. I am still trying to find what method works for him, as its not always cut and dry, this works and this doesnt, which is why I wasnt sure what to do next and I asked. I could list over and over all the things hes improved with and how great he is, but that would make this post so long and obviously you are only concerned with what I am doing wrong. Based on how his behavior in the past couple of days has changed towards me, I would say ignoring has worked, but when I look at how he reacts around other dogs, I would say he is still doing the same thing, only not to me because I don't give him the opportunity. I understand it will take more time and socialization as well as various factors, which is why I want to find him a home that will do that. Sure, I don't exactly know what I am doing, I haven't dealt with this before, but I am trying and I am willing to learn and do new things. I do have two border collies I compete in agility with, so I know a few things about dog training, I am not a complete idiot. I have been working with him, and playing with him. But even moving his toys around he still fixates on me. I don't think telling me I cannot properly train him really is the right way to approach this. Telling me methods to work with him differently? yes, that would have been much better, and much more respectful.


Stef, , if you could contact her for me that would be awesome! I have not heard back from them yet, but I have been checking my email through-out the day. I was going to give them till tomorrow morning to contact me before I called to bother them. If you cannot, I will call them tomorrow morning and see if they can take him.

If Jasmine's house is not willing to take him, I would be willing to send him to NY. I know he needs a good forever home so wherever his best chance at getting a home is, is where I want to send him. I cannot drive him to NY, but if transport is arranged, I might be able to drive him a few hours somewhere else to meet a transporter.
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  #26  
Old 03-08-2013, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DianeRushMav View Post
If Jasmine's house is not willing to take him, I would be willing to send him to NY. I know he needs a good forever home so wherever his best chance at getting a home is, is where I want to send him. I cannot drive him to NY, but if transport is arranged, I might be able to drive him a few hours somewhere else to meet a transporter.
I'm sure we can arrange transport without much of an issue at all. Chazzers are known to step up in that area, plus the rescue director here used to live/work in MD and another rescue I work for frequently transports to/from Ohio through PA. I could probably arrange to get him to NY in a matter of hours.

Do you know how long it will take before you find out if Jasmine's House can take him?
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  #27  
Old 03-08-2013, 03:25 PM
DianeRushMav DianeRushMav is offline
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I also just wanted to say thank you for those of you who have been so helpful in suggesting things as well as helping me try to find a rescue to take him, I really do appreciate it.
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  #28  
Old 03-08-2013, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DianeRushMav View Post
Telling me methods to work with him differently? yes, that would have been much better, and much more respectful.
I did this, after telling you that what you are doing to the puppy is extremely detrimental to socialization AND training. You obviously don't have experience with normal puppies, and are using methods that will hurt this dog down the line. I have worked in shelters for years, fostered for years, and now I'm teaching group classes; this type of behaviors in place of training is what causes dogs to end up in shelters or with owners that are totally overwhelmed!

Why doesn't he know how to sit? It takes a max of 3 days for a 7 week old puppy to learn this. A touch is almost easier. You don't need to shape the sit, you can lure it just fine and it will be a godsend. Do you know how to train a hand touch? That is easy to shape. Any time he comes NEAR you, ask for a sit (use a treat in your hand if you have to!) and reward him for it with the treat. He'll learn that coming to you and sitting is 10x better than coming and chewing on you. Then grab a toy and ENGAGE him in a game of tug or fetch or chase the toy. Then ask for another sit, a hand touch if he's there, add another game in and take him out to potty. Then crate for a little while so that he can nap. This is the stuff puppies do when they aren't being stimulated and are bored. Taking the option away will prevent it from happening ten fold.

He's doing all of this stuff because he isn't trained, doesn't have any mental stimulation going on, and isn't being engaged. He's treating you just like he would a litter mate, at this point. It is completely UNNECCESSARY to use any of the methods you are or have, (besides ignoring him) when you can just train him and keep treats on you and redirect and reward for good things, and ignore for bad. Just ignoring and not adding any reward will not accomplish this very fast and will likely crush his confidence somewhat.
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  #29  
Old 03-08-2013, 04:25 PM
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One thing I did with Jack that really helped with the play biting was making a loud yelping sound when ever he bit us. It didn't take long for him to get the message.

IHMO, the issue with pushing him away is not that it's all that aversive, but that it can actually encourage the behavior if the puppy interprets it as roughhousing. One of the ways we actually get Sally revved up to play is by pushing her when she is playful. She was also a jumper and we used the "putting your knee up" method (before we knew better) and this only encouraged her as she saw it as play.
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  #30  
Old 03-08-2013, 05:17 PM
DianeRushMav DianeRushMav is offline
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You told me something I was already doing. Engaging in play? What do you think I have been doing. Tugging with him brings out the VERY behavior I am trying to get rid of. What you are telling me is that unless I am training him to do a different behavior I shouldnt do anything to stop the current behavior. So I should give in, lure him into a sit, teach him the command, and then engage in a lot of play and tugging. And then when he latches onto me in play and I cant get him off, to tell him to sit and then engage in more tugging? or tell him to do a hand-touch and reward? Because that is what you basically told me to do.

I mentioned he is over threshold. I may not have tons of experience with shelters, but I do have experience with puppies and dogs, and I do have a lot of experience with issues involving threshold. When a dog is so ZONED in onto something, giving them a command or saying their name could make them lose value for their name or the command. Obviously I dont want to do this, I want to work on disengaging him from the behavior first, which is what I have been trying to do. Have you read control unleashed? It has a lot of information about dogs over threshold and it really is a great read.

Tugging? I love tugging, I tug with my dogs all the time. Tugging with this puppy brings out the behavior I have been trying to work with him on. He snarls and growls when I have the toy and he doesn't. He will bite/snap at me if I go near him after this. I am shaping him, because I want him to come to it on his own.

I am shaping his sit, and I am shaping several other behaviors as well. Can he sit on his own? yes. Could I add a command right now? yes. I wont though, because its not ready. I have also been shaping him to stop biting me. When he releases, I click and treat. I know how easy nose-touches are. You cannot tell me he isn't being engaged or mentally stimulated. I just told you I have been working with him. What I am not doing, is working with him the way YOU would work with him. I asked for suggestions that would help get rid of the behavior. I am telling you what you specifically suggested wont work (I have already been engaging him in play and mental stimulation though, as you suggested. IMO thats a given with any puppy). I am not saying what I was doing was working, only that I know when he is over his threshold asking for a sit wont happen. Sure I can bring out a toy, but what does that correct? That signals that its just more fun to chew on a toy, not that its not okay to chew on me. I get the concept you are trying to push at me, I know about it. I may not have worked extensively with shelters and fostered as many dogs as you but that doesnt mean I am an idiot. I wouldnt listen to your advice purely from the way you suggested it to me by first telling me I couldnt properly train a dog.

What is the difference between the way this puppy acts when I:

1. Roll his gums under his teeth when he is biting me
2. Gently push him away when he has latched onto my leg or another body part and is painfully chewing away
3. Tugging, playing games that appeal to his prey drive
4. removing his jaw from my flesh, clothes, anything at all

answer: nothing. He reacts the same way. He snarls, growls, bites, sometimes barks and always gets frustrated and angry, he has broken the skin a few times by doing this. I just got finished actually having a session with him, and when he started getting nasty because I removed his jaw from my pants, I engaged in a game of tug. It made it worse and he left a bunch of marks on my arm from trying to snap/bite me.

I am not trying to come off as high and mighty, I am not a dog expert. I have owned 3 wonderful dogs who I would not trade the world for. I trained them with clicker training, and instead of ignoring every bad behavior, I addressed them. I have worked through a lot with them. I don't know everything there is to know about training a dog, but I am open minded for the most part and willing to try something that sounds reasonable. If I already know he wont respond, why would I sit there and devalue a command?


Its fruitless to argue about this. If you don't see me playing with him and shaping him as mental stimulation and engaging him than I don't know if I would trust your training opinion. I asked for help and I felt very discouraged by you in particular, you didnt even start off with suggestions, you started off telling me I was doing a horrible job. Oh yeah totally lemme just do exactly what you suggested now.
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