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  #261  
Old 02-22-2013, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Flyinsbt View Post
I tend to just take the assumption that it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. Though I wouldn't usually try to take my dog into a place where dogs aren't supposed to be, I used to do that with my bicycle when I used it for transportation. Just take it in, on the assumption that they'd tell me to put it outside if it was a problem.

And I tend to assume, if I see a dog without a SD vest in a place where dogs aren't supposed to be, that it's probably someone using that same theory. We have to remember that most people don't know the laws about SDs, and aren't likely to even consider that they might be mistaken for such.
The thing is, if a business owner sees a dog without a vest, the business owner can't legally ask them to leave because service dogs aren't required to wear ID or uniforms. So, it does put them in a really awkward situation. Most business owners aren't clear on what exactly they are allowed to ask or not, and the fine for violating the ADA is VERY steep. So even if they don't like people bringing pets in, they essentially have to put up with it if people aren't polite enough to just ask.

http://www.ada.gov/enforce.htm

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The Department of Justice may file lawsuits in federal court to enforce the ADA, and courts may order compensatory damages and back pay to remedy discrimination if the Department prevails. Under title III, the Department of Justice may also obtain civil penalties of up to $55,000 for the first violation and $110,000 for any subsequent violation.
Any clarification, education, anything people can do to put business owners at ease I think is a good thing. And if you politely ask if your dog can come in, they say yes, and your dog is awesome, that creates a really positive experience for everyone and helps build a positive culture where companion dogs are more welcome in public and places of business.
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  #262  
Old 02-22-2013, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Romy View Post
The thing is, if a business owner sees a dog without a vest, the business owner can't legally ask them to leave because service dogs aren't required to wear ID or uniforms. So, it does put them in a really awkward situation. Most business owners aren't clear on what exactly they are allowed to ask or not, and the fine for violating the ADA is VERY steep. So even if they don't like people bringing pets in, they essentially have to put up with it if people aren't polite enough to just ask.

http://www.ada.gov/enforce.htm



Any clarification, education, anything people can do to put business owners at ease I think is a good thing. And if you politely ask if your dog can come in, they say yes, and your dog is awesome, that creates a really positive experience for everyone and helps build a positive culture where companion dogs are more welcome in public and places of business.
Though I agree it is more polite to just ask, the shop can put a "no pets" sign on the door. Or they can say "just so you know, only service animals are allowed in the store" and the handler only has to say "ok", or if the dog is a pet they'd then know to leave... I don't know the rules regarding what is OK to ask but I don't imagine that would violate anything.
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  #263  
Old 02-22-2013, 11:17 PM
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Classy
Not any less classy then someone accusing/assuming that someone who takes their dog into a place that "technically" doesnt allow dogs is automatically faking having a SD

besides i was like 18??? I wouldnt dream of saying that now that i am older, i would have just ignored her & kept about my business.
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  #264  
Old 02-22-2013, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Xandra View Post
Though I agree it is more polite to just ask, the shop can put a "no pets" sign on the door. Or they can say "just so you know, only service animals are allowed in the store" and the handler only has to say "ok", or if the dog is a pet they'd then know to leave... I don't know the rules regarding what is OK to ask but I don't imagine that would violate anything.
Or, people could just not take pets where they don't belong. What a thought
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  #265  
Old 02-22-2013, 11:26 PM
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Or, people could just not take pets where they don't belong. What a thought
uh yeah... this seems like a no brainer. agree.

it may be easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission but what kind of mindset is that.

How about having the decency to just say "Hey... would this be OK?"

I think it's the whole mindset of "ask for forgiveness instead of permission" that is a big problem with this society. "we know we are doing wrong but it's easier to just say OOPS sorry... we know we did wrong but just forgive us OK'

NO ... be a decent person and ASK first.
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  #266  
Old 02-22-2013, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Saeleofu View Post
Or, people could just not take pets where they don't belong. What a thought
Well, sure, but I was talking about what the store owners can do when people DO bring their dogs into establishments.
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  #267  
Old 02-22-2013, 11:32 PM
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I came into this thread a little late and honestly have only read the last few pages.

Being a service dog trainer, I'm on the side of "don't bring your pets where pets aren't allowed!" I know as well as anyone that it's annoying not to be able to bring your own pets into all the public places.... my personal dog is just as good in public as the service dogs I train (better than many, in fact) and trained exactly the same way, but still I don't take him where pets aren't allowed.

A lot of good points were already made on this topic, but I wanted to respond to a few statements in particular:

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Originally Posted by Dogdragoness View Post
While I agree with some of your post, i do not agree with "a well trained pet doesnt belong in public" why? because its the law? becaue "big brother" says so?
Because a lot of people are allergic to dogs. Because a lot of people are terrified of dogs. Because the majority of pet owners don't clean up after their dogs - including when their dogs shed. The main reason: because your right to having your dog infringes on other peoples' rights to be comfortable in a public place. Service dogs serve a purpose and people with disabilities have a right to equipment that mitigates their disability; but pets technically and legally have no reason to be in public and therefore should not infringe on others' rights.

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though I did tear a stupid lady a new one when she rounded the corner at PetsMart (back when I was younger & a WHOLE LOT less patient) & actually tried to order me & my dog to move so she could get by with her appearently dog phobic kid, my response was: "**** you, lady, this is Pet'sMart, not Toy's R Us" LOL.
You're right, it is dumb for dog-phobic people to go to a big-box pet store where they're likely to encounter dogs; I'm sure that the majority of people with dog phobias indeed avoid these places. So what happens when the dog phobic person goes to a store that does not allow dogs, and encounters your dog - who, as a pet, has no right to be there? Again, this infringes on that person's right to frequent businesses where he/she will be comfortable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xandra View Post
Though I agree it is more polite to just ask, the shop can put a "no pets" sign on the door. Or they can say "just so you know, only service animals are allowed in the store" and the handler only has to say "ok", or if the dog is a pet they'd then know to leave... I don't know the rules regarding what is OK to ask but I don't imagine that would violate anything.
The law states that business owners can ask two questions when a person brings a dog into their store: "Is this a service dog?" and "What tasks is it trained to do?" If the owner can't or won't answer these two questions, the business owner may ask the owner to remove the dog. Also if the dog is damaging the business - including misbehaving to the point where it bothers other customers - the business owner may ask the owner to remove the dog.
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  #268  
Old 02-22-2013, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Saeleofu View Post
Or, people could just not take pets where they don't belong. What a thought
But there are a lot of places where well behaved dogs could possibly be allowed. Like the library. They don't serve food there, generally people don't hang out long in this branch as its small, it's located near a public park and residential area. Why wouldn't they allow dogs? No where at my library is it clearly marked no dogs, it's only in tiny print in a pamphlet that is found inside the library.

Or banks, dogs very well might not be allowed in the banks but I take Izzie in quite often and we socialize puppies there because really they don't say they're not allowed.

Should dogs only ever be in their yard or a car or in a specifically designate dog park? I'll just tell Izzie she's not allowed to go to the bank anymore or to the hardware store because she doesn't belong out of places that are made for dogs specifically. I really think there would be a higher level of training going on if well behaved dogs were allowed more public places. I also think people would be more active too because I know I and many others don't want to leave our dogs tied up outside if we want to go into a shop, so we drive instead.
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  #269  
Old 02-22-2013, 11:35 PM
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I think that businesses would be more willing to let in a seemingly well behahaved dog as opposed to a ill behaved one. society needs to understand, a fair number of folks who own dogs consider them their kids (i know i do, since i will never EVER have kids of my own).

that being said, business have a right to decide (esp small, local businesses) who comes into their store, in the small town (small towns in many ways are actually more dog friendly then bigger cities) the owners said they would rather have me & my dogs there then someone with ill behaved kids, because my dogs were so WELL behaved (their wordsm, not mine). Heck, most of those business HAD dogs of their own in store.
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  #270  
Old 02-22-2013, 11:39 PM
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Ok... well how about this or that or the other thing.

how about rather than just assuming you just ASK "hey is my dog allowed here" if you have any doubt.

it just really doesn't seem that hard. rather than just "I can do what I want until someone says I can't' how about you just ask if you can before you DO.
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