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  #51  
Old 02-13-2013, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Fran101 View Post
To put the fault of famine, disease, war, violence and abuse on people CHOOSING to live without god is frankly insulting.

Not having religion =/= not having morals.

being religious =/= being moral.
Le sigh.....


I freaking hate social media. LOL I never said any of there things. Because there are clearly moral people who are unchurched and there are churched people who are immoral.

Have good un folks.
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  #52  
Old 02-13-2013, 08:14 PM
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Who said anything about social media???
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  #53  
Old 02-13-2013, 08:17 PM
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I am very glad that you're happy in your faith, and I'm even more glad that your dad supports you in it. One thing that's always bothered me, though, is if he's going to allow you (or send you, depending on your view) to go to hell for not having a relationship with him, why doesn't he make himself known to you? Why does he wait for you to reach out to him? What about those who never hear about him? I know you can't know, but everything that religion and the Bible says supports the whole relationship hypothesis. So if you've never heard of god but otherwise lead a most upstanding life, it should follow that you're going to hell... at least based on Biblical teachings.

I was a staunch Christian my whole life, until (officially) I was 22. Since I've become an atheist, my life has gotten so much better. If his hand was a guiding force in my life, and he was never truly gone, why was I so miserable? I spent all of my teenage years trying to figure out what he wanted me to do, and I could never figure it out. When bad things happened, there was no comfort other than my fellow humans (and dogs and horses). When good things happened, it was because of my (or another human's) actions. But still, I was miserable. Always miserable. Clinically depressed, lost and confused, the works. Once I tossed all of that out of my life, though, my life turned around and I've never been happier or more successful in everything I do. I don't understand how an eternally loving god could have had a hand in my life before.
Those that
Never hear about him are not instantly doomed to hell. There is a judgement day. There is an age of accountability and there are those who were never able to learn about him (although in China they are not allowed but some
Of the most devout come from such oppression even though they have to do it under ground). God knows your heart. You can claim to be Christian all your life (not you specifically... This is not in response to your second statement) but be filled with hate and sin and God knows your heart so if you truly never get the chance to know about him, you will habe your chance. God is grace. Everyone has his grace, it's what we choose to
DO with it if given the chance.

He does reach out to us but we blow
It off as humanistic influence, it wasn't God it was something else. He just doesn't force us but he is always speaking to us. It is whether or not we choose to hear it. He could absolutely impose his will on us but that wouldn't be faith. The old testament shows us that. We are stubborn and sinful.

If I spit in my human fathers face repeatedly and he wouldn't allow me in his home any longer does that make him hateful and vengeful or is that a problem with me? I could blame him easily but in reality I have told him that I don't are about him, love him or respect him... Should he just keep turning the other cheek and continue to allow me to abuse him?

To quote walt disney "sometimes a kick in the teeth is the best thing
For you".

Just like when I was with an abusive man... Why wasn't my family (or God) reaching out to me or helping me? The truth is... They were but I wouldn't listen. I knew better than they did. That whole scenario in the end is what led me to God. I knew better than all else... Turned out I didn't and I had just turned a deaf ear to everything and everyone even though they were right and God had been calling on me all along, I just didn't want to hear it.

I can't comment on your journey no matter where it leads because it is not my journey and I am not omnipotent. Perhaps your journey will be used to inspire someone else into a new journey or make an example or who knows. Please trust me that that is not meant to be an
Offensive statement of "you are wrong and he is going to use you to prove he is right" I honestly can't know

This has been a great talk though. Seriously I am enjoying this exchange
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  #54  
Old 02-13-2013, 08:22 PM
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Who said anything about social media???
He means communicating on forums instead of face to face. This is technically social
Media
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  #55  
Old 02-13-2013, 08:27 PM
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To quote walt disney "sometimes a kick in the teeth is the best thing
For you".

Just like when I was with an abusive man... Why wasn't my family (or God) reaching out to me or helping me? The truth is... They were but I wouldn't listen.
Or sometimes when you ask, a different deity answers, or a different answer comes

For most Christians, especially born agains I would assume, converting felt like coming home...like THIS is what I have been missing my whole life!

Well guess what...for others that is the EXACT feeling they get when accepting themselves as atheists, or pagans, or whatever
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  #56  
Old 02-13-2013, 08:30 PM
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I am sorry that atheists have told you those things. Not all of us do that.


Like I said in my original post, not every religious person does this, and most don't. At least in my experience (and I spent most of my life as a devout Christian) with both religious people and atheists, religious people moreso than atheists.


That's fantastic! It unfortunately doesn't happen often enough. I've had SOs whose parents were absolutely fine with my atheism - we didn't discuss it at length, but they knew. None of them were very religious, though. My parents, on the other hand, are bothered by my atheism.


If you read the Bible, it's full of those things, too. Especially the multiple partners part (http://www.religiondispatches.org/ar...s,_some_slaves) and violence part (how many genocides - ordered by god - were there? And rapes, child beatings, slave beatings/rapes?). It also has a lot of misogyny.

But yes, I see what you're saying. If you discount the Old Testament and look only at Jesus, then yes (even though Jesus does permit divorce, with some consequences and stipulations). In entertainment, yes, there is a lot of that stuff. Everywhere else, religion is rampant. I've even had a biology professor at a state-supported university answer questions she didn't know the answer to as, "That's just the way god made it."


Again, I never said most are. I, like you, said that most are not.


Those are all great! But why does it have to be tied with religion? In my atheist group, we're always looking for more charity events. We hold blood drives periodically, we're about to run a food drive, we have a constant "Send an Atheist to Church" drive where if you donate $10 to the Red Cross, one of us will go to your church. We've adopted a street and clean it up 4x/year. My atheist group has become my best friends. They've been a fantastic support system for me, from coming out of the closet as an atheist to my parents to bad break ups to my mother getting cancer. I've never met a greater group of people.

Obviously, churches can be a great support system. Since my mom has had cancer, both of my parents' churches have stepped up and really taken care of them. They've been an invaluable help, and not just in this case, but in the past. You also gave a great example.

But what about those churches (again, not all) who cast out teens and children when they come out as gay? Or the case of the church in CO (I think?) when an elder of the church raped a 14 year old (not sure on the age, but young), and when she became pregnant they made her stand in front of the church and confess her sin, then banned her from the church and ran her out of town, while the rapist barely got a slap on the wrist? What about the times when a teen has come out to his or her parents as an atheist and they disowned him/her, and the church didn't do anything? Again, no, it doesn't happen all the time. Many churches - and even more Christians - are very welcoming of all creeds, orientations, and belief systems, and aren't so misogynistic when it comes to rape. But to say it's not a problem is putting your head in the sand, just like with the molestation. What's worse is a lot of these problems are stemmed from theological beliefs, not just one person being awful.


It may be contrary to your faith, but not theirs. The thing with religion and Christianity is it's not set in stone. There's a reason there are hundreds of denominations. Not everyone is going to agree on the same interpretation of the Bible. It was written many generations after these things happened and were passed on orally then was edited and re-edited and translated and re-translated and re-edited and cut and pasted and re-translated and... well, you get the picture. Nobody agrees what it means, and you have to cherry pick what you believe from it.

I wish more people would look at good in the Bible and follow the good, but in reality that's just not going to happen. The Bible is too flexible.


But violence and hate is a human problem and a god problem. God is a very violent and hateful being. Like I told my dad when he brought it up, if god is real (which I don't think he is), then I think he's a jerk who doesn't deserve to be worshiped. In the OT he demanded blood sacrifices to let us save ourselves from him. Then he killed his own son, who was himself, to save us... from himself. My dad and I discussed it recently, and I think it (and a quote from a man who calls himself The Thinker [pretentious, I know]) sum up my feelings the best. My dad told me that he thought the devil drags us to hell rather than god sending us there. He asked me, "If I'm your father and I'm supporting you financially 100% then you completely disown me as your father, is it reasonable for me to continue supporting you?" "No, it's not, but god isn't constantly supporting my way of living. He's leaving me alone. Take the exact same scenario, then imagine that you see an obvious serial killer, completely with a scythe and hatchet, grab me and drag me into the basement of a building, obviously intent to carve me and torture me slowly. Would you just stand there and watch him do it because I said you weren't my dad, or would you step in and at least try to do something because you love me and I'm your daughter?"

The Thinker's quote: "Let's say, you had a father who wrote a book and left before you were born. And in this book, he instructs you on how he wants you to behave. Also, in this book, he tells you he wants to have a relationship with you, and mandates you write letters to him daily, which he doesn't reply to. Also if you read the book, he tells you he wants you to sing songs about how great he is, gives you an unreasonable, unattainable standard he wants you to live up to, says you are unworthy of his love, tries to convince you are evil just because you were born,had another one of his children tortured to death, and claimed the reason he did it was how bad you were. He also in the book tries to convince you that you deserve to be tortured to death in the way he had his other child killed. In addition to this, the child he had tortured to death, he conceived with a woman who had no say in the matter, while she was engaged to another man. At some point, you would probably stop writing letters to this father, conclude he is a lunatic and highly obsessed with himself, and if a case study was done of your father by a license psychologist, to be conservative about the situation, he would conclude your father is highly irrational, possibly a sociopath, and the relationships he has with everyone involved are abusive and highly dysfunctional."

I know I'm probably going to ruffle more than a few feathers with saying all of this, but this is what I truly believe. I have religious friends, and my boyfriend is largely Christian (with Buddhist and Taoist influences). My parents are very Christian, and I periodically go play violin at my mom's church. I love everyone at her church. I have no problem with religious people, but I do get my feathers ruffled when bad things start to happen with a base in religion. It's all in how it's approached and used.
I believe that people make their own hell. I'm not talking about who or what you worship, or don't, I'm talking about things that suck the humanity out of people. I think that someone like Hitler or Stalin a coldblooded murderer are in hell not because they have been cast there, but because the actions that they took against their fellow humans literally sucked out their humanity bit by bit, so that their soul simply could not exist anywhere but far away from God.

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense-lol-I'm hungry and have spaghetti waiting for me.

If you are interested there is a book you might want to read, it's called "Love Wins" by Rob Bell. I'm reading it now, and really like it. It's controversial in the Christian community, and if you read it you will see why pretty quickly, but it's worth checking out, IMHO.

Honestly, I wrestle with questions of faith a lot. My cousin killed himself a year and a half ago, and he had had an awful life. I believed in God but couldn't be part of a belief system so black and white that it would condemn this boy to hell after the hell that had been his life. I feel that people make God more black and white than he is--there is a lot of gray in faith. The experience has changed my perspective in how I look at Christianity, God, and how I live my life.

Enough rambling....spaghetti time!
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  #57  
Old 02-13-2013, 08:41 PM
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I'm agnostic so I'm more of the "Meh who cares?" type. Live and let live. Your belief in some invisible being (or lack of) should not dominate your life. You want to be a good person? Just be a good person.
Me! Completely.

I'm going through the rest of the thread now. Very interesting thus far!
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  #58  
Old 02-13-2013, 08:41 PM
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Or sometimes when you ask, a different deity answers, or a different answer comes

For most Christians, especially born agains I would assume, converting felt like coming home...like THIS is what I have been missing my whole life!

Well guess what...for others that is the EXACT feeling they get when accepting themselves as atheists, or pagans, or whatever
I am not trying to be smart or snarky

You live the way you need to and feel the way you need to. I have no power to **** you or praise you. Just sharing my journey and my belief. I was asked some questions and I answered them best I know how

I understand everyones journey is different mine was not ideal to a lot of people (and still isn't) but it is my journey andgood or bad past or
Present it is what it is
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  #59  
Old 02-13-2013, 08:42 PM
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I guess my biggest issue with many Christians is even while paying lip service to "I accept others" or "My faith is personal" there is still a lot of condescation you didnt do this the right way, etc etc. You have a real, personal relationship with a different deity? Oh, thats not real or thats not the same...


Really? Telling people their doing it wrong is hardly a Christian thing. On this forum look at some of the discussions on dog food, training, breeding ethics, even how one refers to their designer dog. Nastiness on dog forums about grocery store kibble vs premium kibble vs premade raw vs BARF vs prey model, clicker vs prong vs headcollar, and all vs CM, speuter, crop and dock, confo vs sport vs working.....I could go on and on...

Telling others they are doing it wrong is human nature. In this very thread you and others are telling Christians what is wrong with our faith.....
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~Christina--Mom to:
Sally--8 yr old pit bull mix
Jack--6 yr old Labrador
Sadie & Runt--12 yr old calico DSHs
Pickles & Kiwi--3 yr old white winged parakeets
Yoda--1 yr old Quaker parrot
Solo--12 yr old Senegal parrot
Sheena--Quarter Horse--3/24/86-6/23/11--Rest Easy Sweet Girl~




Labs do it in the lake.


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  #60  
Old 02-13-2013, 08:44 PM
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Really? Telling people their doing it wrong is hardly a Christian thing. On this forum look at some of the discussions on dog food, training, breeding ethics, even how one refers to their designer dog. Nastiness on dog forums about grocery store kibble vs premium kibble vs premade raw vs BARF vs prey model, clicker vs prong vs headcollar, and all vs CM, speuter, crop and dock, confo vs sport vs working.....I could go on and on...

Telling others they are doing it wrong is human nature. In this very thread you and others are telling Christians what is wrong with our faith.....
DId I say it was exclusive? I was talking about a specific thing...that the whole "we know God, you dont" that many Christians have.
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