Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dogs - General Dog Chat


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 02-02-2013, 08:48 AM
Torch's Avatar
Torch Torch is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
Posts: 670
Default

There are several breeds that I prefer cropped and/or docked. It's a personal preference and I don't find it terribly cruel.
__________________


Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 02-02-2013, 09:00 AM
sassafras's Avatar
sassafras sassafras is offline
such sights to show you
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 5,573
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OwnedByBCs View Post
I don't think you all realize how hurtful it is to hear things like "it is just so awful for the dogs". Everyone I know who has cropped and docked their dogs are incredibly in love with their dogs and their breed... no less than you and I. Their dogs play, and work, and live a great life.

Just, keep in mind that there is a way to disagree with something without demonizing someone who made that choice themselves.
But acknowledging the level of pain, distress, and anxiety that is inherent in an elective surgical procedure is (or should be) part of what goes into making the decision to do it or not. I mean, honestly I think ear cropping IS kind of awful for the dogs, and personally I couldn't do it... the outcome/perceived benefit isn't worth it to me. But me saying that isn't the same as demonizing a person who made the choice to do it. It's just a different cost/benefit analysis for them.

Strong, hurtful opinions about topics ranging from vaccines to spay/neuter to diet to declaw are expressed on Chaz all the time, why is this particular topic verboten? I don't doubt that people who crop and dock love their dogs just as much as I love mine, just like I don't doubt that someone who feeds Old Roy or neuters their dog or vaccinates more often than I do loves their dogs just as much as I love mine. It just means everyone has different lines in the sand.

A judgment of the procedure isn't the same as a judgment of the person who chose to do it. People have reasons to do the procedures, the experience and recovery period is very short compared to the dog's lifetime, and most dogs don't have any mental or physical long term ill effects - the same as many elective surgical procedures that we all make choices about every day, from OHE/neuter to removing cosmetically displeasing lumps.

The conversation shouldn't be "if you make this decision you are bad" IMO, it should be "if you choose to do this procedure, put thought into why you are doing it, weigh the benefits and risks, find someone who is good at it (including not only the procedure but up to date anesthetic and pain management protocols), be prepared to do proper aftercare, and be aware of how to recognize and address complications." That's the best any of us can do for any elective procedure.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 02-02-2013, 09:28 AM
SpringerLover's Avatar
SpringerLover SpringerLover is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: B-ville
Posts: 3,114
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
The conversation shouldn't be "if you make this decision you are bad" IMO, it should be "if you choose to do this procedure, put thought into why you are doing it, weigh the benefits and risks, find someone who is good at it (including not only the procedure but up to date anesthetic and pain management protocols), be prepared to do proper aftercare, and be aware of how to recognize and address complications." That's the best any of us can do for any elective procedure.
One of my cats is declawed. I don't like to talk about it. At the time, it was a choice my parents gave me of having him declawed, or making him live outside. I chose declaw. Do I regret it...? If you look at the whole picture, no. But I really, really, really, hate the fact that he's declawed and he moves differently because of it. For him it basically came down to a life/death situation. I made the best choice I could at the time with the choices I was given.
__________________
Megan and the Aroha English Springer Spaniels
To Infinity and Beyond! ARCH URO1 UCD Buzz NAC NCC S-NJC O-TN-N TG-N WV-N RL2 RLVX RN ThD CGC 5/4/1998-5/20/2014
The Hallway Monitor Bailey VCD1 RE NAC NCC TN-N CGC 14 years
Puzzle Piece Gabby RLV 8 years
ESRA foster Diego 12 years
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 02-02-2013, 09:57 AM
milos_mommy's Avatar
milos_mommy milos_mommy is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,561
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
Have ever been around debarked dogs?
Yes, a number of them. Why?
__________________
"My favorite color is green, green like newly cut grass. When it comes to green with envy, though, you can stick it up your @ss!" ~ Grammy



http://www.adorablebeasts.blogspot.com
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 02-02-2013, 10:05 AM
AdrianneIsabel's Avatar
AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
Glutton for Crazy
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 8,893
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by milos_mommy View Post
Yes, a number of them. Why?
Most likely because you proclaim it inhibited their ability to communicate and ruined their interactions with other dogs and people. That has not been my experience with debarked dogs, I am guessing nor Alerons.

Was your experience of these debarked dogs through the shelter setting? Is it not possible there was another factor?

Ime debarked dogs bark, they just rasp, and are otherwise normal dogs.
__________________
Sloan von Krigbaum IPO1 CGC BH CD NA NJ PD MJ-N RATI RATN 3/7/10 -
Shamoo NJ-N RATI RATN 3/1/98 -
Phelan du Loups du Soleil CGC RATI 6/15/13 -
Chili Brigades Brover 5/23/14 -

Arnold CGC TDI FD 6/29/04 - 07/05/13
Backup CGC HIC CD SRD SJ-N RATI 12/29/09 - 07/05/13

You were amazing, we did amazing things.


Harmony Canine, relationship based training.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 02-02-2013, 10:07 AM
sassafras's Avatar
sassafras sassafras is offline
such sights to show you
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 5,573
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerLover View Post
One of my cats is declawed. I don't like to talk about it. At the time, it was a choice my parents gave me of having him declawed, or making him live outside. I chose declaw. Do I regret it...? If you look at the whole picture, no. But I really, really, really, hate the fact that he's declawed and he moves differently because of it. For him it basically came down to a life/death situation. I made the best choice I could at the time with the choices I was given.
Yes, that's what I mean by I'll take the cat over the claws. Declawing is kind of awful, but again - with a good surgeon, good anesthesia, and good pain management (which in this day and age there are great multi-modal options for aggressive pain management for declaws and no excuse not to use them), the experience is a relatively short period of time out of the life of a cat with IME a very, very low risk of long term mental or physical effects and it keeps many, many cats in homes and out of shelters or off the streets.

It is definitely becoming more the "norm" not to declaw than to declaw, and I'm truly happy to see that. But personally over my career I have seen hundreds if not thousands of cats who have been declawed and IME/IMO the vast, vast majority of them do not suffer any long term ill effects (mental or physical). So I can't really fault someone between a rock and a hard place choosing to declaw the cat so it can stay in their home.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 02-02-2013, 10:10 AM
sassafras's Avatar
sassafras sassafras is offline
such sights to show you
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 5,573
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
Most likely because you proclaim it inhibited their ability to communicate and ruined their interactions with other dogs and people. That has not been my experience with debarked dogs, I am guessing nor Alerons.

Was your experience of these debarked dogs through the shelter setting? Is it not possible there was another factor?

Ime debarked dogs bark, they just rasp, and are otherwise normal dogs.
Mine, too. They pretty much act the same, just the noise they make is different IME.

I think there is a perception that people debark primarily for convenience. The only dogs I've ever known who have been debarked were either dogs with severe SA whose barking could not be controlled any other way and people were about to be kicked out of their apartments, or in one case a woman who got an anonymous note threatening to harm her dog ("shut your dog up or I will"). It's really a last resort for people IME.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 02-02-2013, 10:15 AM
milos_mommy's Avatar
milos_mommy milos_mommy is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,561
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
Most likely because you proclaim it inhibited their ability to communicate and ruined their interactions with other dogs and people. That has not been my experience with debarked dogs, I am guessing nor Alerons.

Was your experience of these debarked dogs through the shelter setting? Is it not possible there was another factor?

Ime debarked dogs bark, they just rasp, and are otherwise normal dogs.
One was a neighbor's dog, one was a grooming client, two were day care dogs, one was a close family friend's dog. The three clients were debarked by owners, the other two were puppy mill dogs debarked before rescue.

Did they lead horrible, completely abnormal lives because of being debarked? No. I don't think I said it ruined their interactions with other dogs and people. But it definitely did AFFECT their interactions. The first time I heard a debarked dog bark, I thought it was coughing. It was certainly not loud enough for a dog to vocalize in an emergency to someone in another room.
__________________
"My favorite color is green, green like newly cut grass. When it comes to green with envy, though, you can stick it up your @ss!" ~ Grammy



http://www.adorablebeasts.blogspot.com
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 02-02-2013, 10:24 AM
milos_mommy's Avatar
milos_mommy milos_mommy is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,561
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
I think there is a perception that people debark primarily for convenience. The only dogs I've ever known who have been debarked were either dogs with severe SA whose barking could not be controlled any other way and people were about to be kicked out of their apartments, or in one case a woman who got an anonymous note threatening to harm her dog ("shut your dog up or I will"). It's really a last resort for people IME.
We're talking about debarking in comparison to cropping and docking. Dogs aren't cropped and docked as a last resort, and lots of them aren't debarked as a last resort, even though many are.

To me, cropping and docking is acceptable if it's being done for serious safety reasons for the dog, the same as debarking is acceptable if it is A LAST RESORT (Last resort is after you've called a professional trainer to deal with SA. It's after you've worked your schedule as best as possible so your dog isn't barking at the most inconvenient times. It's after you've put your eligible dog in day care. It's not "oh, she won't shut up and I got a complaint so I'll debark her).

Cropping and docking done purely for aesthetics, IMO, while silly, and unnecessary, and honestly a little bit mean, (I also think the incorrect use of prong collars is mean and leaving a high energy puppy in a crate for 10 hours is mean and bringing a shy and nervous dog to a dog park is mean. Lots of people do those things. They're not horrible people.) I don't think it's a horrible decision or should be banned.

Debarking a dog because it's annoying, or because you have 6 more dogs than your lease allows and don't want anyone to hear it, or because you don't want to pay a trainer, or because your dog is alone for 14 hours a day and you shouldn't have gotten it in the first place and you won't pay a dog walker....is not remotely the same as changing a dog's ear shape.
__________________
"My favorite color is green, green like newly cut grass. When it comes to green with envy, though, you can stick it up your @ss!" ~ Grammy



http://www.adorablebeasts.blogspot.com
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 02-02-2013, 10:31 AM
~Jessie~'s Avatar
~Jessie~ ~Jessie~ is offline
Chihuahua Power!
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 19,584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
It is definitely becoming more the "norm" not to declaw than to declaw, and I'm truly happy to see that. But personally over my career I have seen hundreds if not thousands of cats who have been declawed and IME/IMO the vast, vast majority of them do not suffer any long term ill effects (mental or physical). So I can't really fault someone between a rock and a hard place choosing to declaw the cat so it can stay in their home.
My grandmother had diabetes and a cat that loved to "pounce" on her and claw up her legs. Her choices were to declaw the cat, rehome her, or have her euthanized.

She chose to have her euthanized, because she was SO against declawing.

I would have MUCH rather seen the cat declawed, so she could've lived out her life with my grandmother. She was an inside cat, young, and being declawed would've been much better than death.

I'm not a fan of declawing, but like you said, it's a better option than many of the alternatives.

Ian's cat in high school was declawed, and entirely an inside cat. She ended up sneaking outside and was attacked by a neighbor's dog in a matter of seconds. She tried to use her non existant claws to fight against the dog, but he bit her neck and killed her.

Besides the whole procedure, that's the biggest thing that scares me about declawing. If the cat gets outside, it doesn't have much of a way to defend itself.
__________________

L to R: Chloe, Rylie, Emma, Tucker, and Rory
My Blog- Chihuahuas are not Sheep
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:59 AM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site