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  #21  
Old 02-01-2013, 01:50 PM
crazedACD crazedACD is offline
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I'm not against it. It would depend on the breed for me, but I probably would not crop one of my own dogs. Docking I'm all for (dependent on breed)...if I ever ended up looking at another pointer puppy, it would absolutely be docked. I've been on the cusp of having Skye's tail amputated because she gets happy tail now and again (and we are BOTH miserable), and has also injured it a few times. I've seen docking in puppies done and from what I saw, it wasn't a big deal.

I've seen really poorly done crops, and crops that people had no clue how to take care of after (persistent infection). I really think people need to know how to take care of a new crop...
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  #22  
Old 02-01-2013, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Julee View Post
For those who are okay with it, do you feel that it's okay for a non-traditional breed to get it done? Like, say, a lab?
I guess it doesn't really matter, but I think that would be silly. First of all, a Lab with cropped ears would look ridiculous, and second of all, it's a lot of work to care for cropped ears and get them standing. Why would anyone want to go through that unless they had a traditionally cropped breed and therefore have come to know that look and desire that look? There is a lot of work and patience involved. And initially, it's expensive.

And if someone docked a Lab's tail, I wouldn't care. Although that seems to kind of defeat the purpose of what a Lab's "otter tail" is supposed to do. Couldn't be much of a rudder if they had none. Plus, a Lab with a tail looks more right to me.

For me, cropping and docking is mostly for looks. If I'd come to know Dobermans with tails and ears first, I would probably prefer that look. But in North America, they are a traditionally cropped and docked breed and that is the look I've always known, so for me that look for a Doberman is correct and is why I choose to own cropped and docked Dobermans. Not that I had a choice, as typically reputable breeders always crop/dock their dogs, but even if I'd had the choice, I likely still would have opted for my dogs to be cropped and docked.
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  #23  
Old 02-01-2013, 01:59 PM
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Not for me thanks.

And illegal here anyway so moot point. Unless you have working gundogs.


Fred doesn't have his dewclaws, and that is hard for me, as I don't agree with it. I never thought to ask that when approaching breeders. It has been a learning curve for me in that respect.


It makes me really sad that he doesn't have them. I felt a bit dumb when I realised, and guilty. He has little scars there, and it makes my insides go a bit weird.


It's going to be a struggle when we get our next gsp as looking now, I can't seem to find a breeder who doesn't remove them. Sure we'll find someone out there... I hope. I think we will have more of them in the future! Gsps that is!


Personally I'm in the camp, if its not broke, don't fix it. Fred is undocked. If he hurts his tail, I'll deal with it the same way as I'd do with Bodhi or any other undocked dog breed.


If she catches a claw, I'll deal with it. I wish Fred has his thumbs if he had an issue with them, we'd have dealt with it. I certainly don't need them off for prevention for something that might never happen.


And yes, he's none the wiser, but that's not the point for me. I'm actually not sure why it's not banned seeing as they've banned docking.... And cropping has been banned for YEARS. before my time. Only ever seen one cropped dog in my life.
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  #24  
Old 02-01-2013, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julee View Post
For those who are okay with it, do you feel that it's okay for a non-traditional breed to get it done? Like, say, a lab?
Nope, wouldn't bother me. I would wonder why they did it but I wouldn't find it anymore wrong or right than I would with any traditional cropped breed.

So yeah, I might look at the people sideways and wonder but I don't think it hurts more or less with a breed not traditionally cropped or docked. Though, like Toller said I do think you would have issues getting it to stand depending on how tall it was and that would mean more time in a cone I would imagine.
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  #25  
Old 02-01-2013, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Toller_08 View Post
Having been with puppies before, during, immediately after and days after cropping, I can't call the procedure cruel. Once the anesthetic wears off, they're running and playing and eating as normal. I'm sure it hurts, but when done right and taken care of afterward properly, you truly cannot tell. The anesthetic is what bothers them the most. Makes them cold, shakey, drunk, nauseous... once that's done, they're back to being puppies. Honestly, every dog I've spayed has shown a lot more pain than the 30+ puppies I've seen who were cropped properly and looked after properly. Now, people who take their BYB dogs to stupid vets who don't know anything about cropping, that is something I will never agree with. Aftercare is done wrong, the crop isn't done nicely, the whole thing is just a mess.
I had the same experience with Sako. His breeder sent me a video of him the night of his surgery and he was bouncing around like a mad man. Whereas Wilson was a MESS the night after his neuter.. OMG it was so pitiful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julee View Post
For those who are okay with it, do you feel that it's okay for a non-traditional breed to get it done? Like, say, a lab?
Well that'd just be.. weird. But whatever floats your boat, I guess.
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  #26  
Old 02-01-2013, 02:07 PM
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I don't like it. Wesley's tail is docked, and it makes me icked out when I feel the end of it and the skin is different and weird. I just don't see the value in cutting parts of a body off for the sake of looks. I wouldn't purchase a dog that's cropped/docked, but I'd be up for rescue (obviously).
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  #27  
Old 02-01-2013, 02:08 PM
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I don't have a problem with it as long as it's done by someone who knows what they are doing and do it well.

Now dewclaws... I honestly HATE dewclaws, especially back dewclaws. All of my dogs do have their dewclaws though (only in the front).
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  #28  
Old 02-01-2013, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linds View Post
Personal choice and preference. I would hate to see it banned and I refuse to villainize people who crop and/or dock.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kady05 View Post
Except for a Dobe.. if I had a Dobe, even if it would just be a pet dog and never show, it'd be cropped/docked because I think they look like Coonhounds if left natural.
... and breeders who crop will rarely leave a puppy natural, even if money is paid up front. At the time of cropping, we don't know which puppies are show quality and which are pet quality, because Dobermans as a breed are SO competitive in the show ring. Why do you think my posts in the Chaz 2013 Puppy thread are so cryptic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toller_08 View Post
Having been with puppies before, during, immediately after and days after cropping, I can't call the procedure cruel. Once the anesthetic wears off, they're running and playing and eating as normal. I'm sure it hurts, but when done right and taken care of afterward properly, you truly cannot tell. The anesthetic is what bothers them the most. Makes them cold, shakey, drunk, nauseous... once that's done, they're back to being puppies. Honestly, every dog I've spayed has shown a lot more pain than the 30+ puppies I've seen who were cropped properly and looked after properly. Now, people who take their BYB dogs to stupid vets who don't know anything about cropping, that is something I will never agree with. Aftercare is done wrong, the crop isn't done nicely, the whole thing is just a mess.
This. It seems to me that most people who have seen the results excellent, talented, experienced cropping vets.... don't mind cropping as much as people who haven't. There really is a huge difference between a cropper who is known in the show circles, versus a local vet who happens to offer cropping. The level of comfort and care is vastly different.

I'm obviously a supporter of the right to crop and dock:
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  #29  
Old 02-01-2013, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linds View Post
I do think you would have issues getting it to stand depending on how tall it was and that would mean more time in a cone I would imagine.
I actually didn't think of that (being harder to get to stand than a typically cropped breed). I just meant that even for a typically cropped breed, the aftercare of cropping (which is best taken care of be a knowledgeable breeder) and then all of the taping/posting after that is what is time consuming. I taped Ripley's ears myself, and caring for them is more work than people would think, and it was stressful wondering if/hoping they would actually stand. I was pretty sure they would, but still.

But it may or may not be more difficult to get a non-traditionally cropped breed's ears to stand. Would likely depend on the ear leather and maybe even the head shape? Not sure, but either way, I personally don't think there's much worse than a crop and flop, and while it wouldn't bother the dog to be posted for a long time (they aren't in cones - they wear a light cup for a couple of weeks [unless that's what you meant], and then are posted with flexible but straight rods and athletic tape), as an owner I would be stressed out wondering if I just ruined my dog's ears. Since there likely isn't another cropped Lab (or whatever else breed) out there who is cropped to even compare to to see if it worked or not.

So yeah, that's probably another concern with cropping a breed that is normally not. You probably don't know if the ears actually will stand, depending on a number of things.

But either way I'd be fine if that's what the owner chose to do. I'd just think it was really odd.
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  #30  
Old 02-01-2013, 02:53 PM
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To me...docking and cropping are in a far, far, far different boat than devocalization.

Cropping and docking are not going to drastically change most dogs day-to-day lives. If they're a working dog, yes maybe it will be safer...and a docked tail can have SOME effect on how a dog communications, but in general, it's not going to make any major differences.

Devocalization is drastically altering a dog's ability to communicate and express themselves, with other dogs and people. Aside from the fact that any debarking I've ever seen was done on an older puppy or dog (except for mass puppy mill debarkings). Imagine being stuck somewhere, separated from your family, or confronted by a big scary dog, and being unable to vocally defend yourself or ask for help. That's how I see debarking. It's the difference between piercing your child's ears without their permission, and severing their vocal cords without permission.

That said...I personally wouldn't crop or dock a dog unless I had the dog for working purposes and wanted it done, say a dog I would be using heavily for PP, or a working cattle dog. (Even for show/trial purposes, not necessarily real life use). I do think it's extremely trivial to crop or dock a dog for entirely cosmetic purposes...but as with most young puppies it'd be hard to tell if they'll end up leading a working life or not, I do not think banning it would be helpful.

In places where it is banned except for working gundogs...how do you prove the dog will work? Does the dog have to be from working parents? Do you have to submit any kind of proof the dog works or will work? Or can you just walk in and say "I'm going to be hunting with this puppy, can you dock him for me?"?
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