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  #31  
Old 01-24-2013, 03:51 PM
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Lyzelle Lyzelle is offline
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It doesn't give any basis or fact for a balanced diet at all. The only insight it gives is a genetic standpoint. Starch is metabolized into sugar, which has no nutritional value at all. So no, Sara, they actually aren't getting something from it other than maybe some way to gain weight and have small, quick bursts of energy and then crash. I would think for you, and your agility dogs, that would be a nightmare unless it was right before or right after a hard workout.

Yeah, this article gives proof on a genetic level. It gives NO basis or proof on how we should feed a nutritional or balanced diet. Zero.
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  #32  
Old 01-24-2013, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Lyzelle View Post
It doesn't give any basis or fact for a balanced diet at all. The only insight it gives is a genetic standpoint. Starch is metabolized into sugar, which has no nutritional value at all. So no, Sara, they actually aren't getting something from it other than maybe some way to gain weight and have small, quick bursts of energy and then crash. I would think for you, and your agility dogs, that would be a nightmare unless it was right before or right after a hard workout.

Yeah, this article gives proof on a genetic level. It gives NO basis or proof on how we should feed a nutritional or balanced diet. Zero.
Hmmm.... My dogs actually do a lot more than just run agility. We go hiking, they run in the backyard, they play, they train. Tons of opportunities to burn off sugars if that's really all they are getting from it.

From what I have learned about trying to get weight off of dogs is that you can use vegetables as a filler that doesn't add a lot of fat/sugar to their diet. So essentially you feed green beans or whatever to make your dog feel fuller without adding a ton of calories.
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  #33  
Old 01-24-2013, 04:21 PM
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LOL you'd die without sugar (or at least glucose). Your Krebs cycle relies on it.

Additionally, there is more to grains than carbs. Many grains have a surprising amount of protein. And even if it is purely an energy source, so what?

No one will EVER know what the "optimum" diet for dogs or any other animal is. No creature evolved eating an optimum diet, they all adapted to be able to use one or more of the foodstuffs available to them. Everything evolved to be able to eat a diet that would allow them to grow fast enough and strong enough to reproduce before they died. Bodies are not designed to grow old, they're designed to live long enough to breed. So the argument of "sure, they can digest grains but it's not optimum" is sort of pointless IMO. Optimum for what? What gets me through to reproduction (my "natural" diet) may not be what is best to get me through to old age.
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  #34  
Old 01-24-2013, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
LOL you'd die without sugar (or at least glucose). Your Krebs cycle relies on it.

Additionally, there is more to grains than carbs. Many grains have a surprising amount of protein. And even if it is purely an energy source, so what?

No one will EVER know what the "optimum" diet for dogs or any other animal is. No creature evolved eating an optimum diet, they all adapted to be able to use one or more of the foodstuffs available to them. Everything evolved to be able to eat a diet that would allow them to grow fast enough and strong enough to reproduce before they died. Bodies are not designed to grow old, they're designed to live long enough to breed. So the argument of "sure, they can digest grains but it's not optimum" is sort of pointless IMO. Optimum for what? What gets me through to reproduction (my "natural" diet) may not be what is best to get me through to old age.
This. Sure, you can *say* it's that simple, but it's really not.
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  #35  
Old 01-24-2013, 04:28 PM
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Meat has sugar, minimally, but enough to take note.
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  #36  
Old 01-24-2013, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
LOL you'd die without sugar (or at least glucose). Your Krebs cycle relies on it.

Additionally, there is more to grains than carbs. Many grains have a surprising amount of protein. And even if it is purely an energy source, so what?

No one will EVER know what the "optimum" diet for dogs or any other animal is. No creature evolved eating an optimum diet, they all adapted to be able to use one or more of the foodstuffs available to them. Everything evolved to be able to eat a diet that would allow them to grow fast enough and strong enough to reproduce before they died. Bodies are not designed to grow old, they're designed to live long enough to breed. So the argument of "sure, they can digest grains but it's not optimum" is sort of pointless IMO. Optimum for what? What gets me through to reproduction (my "natural" diet) may not be what is best to get me through to old age.
This, totally.
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  #37  
Old 01-24-2013, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
LOL you'd die without sugar (or at least glucose). Your Krebs cycle relies on it.

Additionally, there is more to grains than carbs. Many grains have a surprising amount of protein. And even if it is purely an energy source, so what?

No one will EVER know what the "optimum" diet for dogs or any other animal is. No creature evolved eating an optimum diet, they all adapted to be able to use one or more of the foodstuffs available to them. Everything evolved to be able to eat a diet that would allow them to grow fast enough and strong enough to reproduce before they died. Bodies are not designed to grow old, they're designed to live long enough to breed. So the argument of "sure, they can digest grains but it's not optimum" is sort of pointless IMO. Optimum for what? What gets me through to reproduction (my "natural" diet) may not be what is best to get me through to old age.
"Optimum" is a flexible word.
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  #38  
Old 01-24-2013, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
But having some sort of science to back it up IS the whole point. Right now SO many things about nutrition are nothing more than opinion. Now there is actually some evidence that dogs have evolved this ability to digest starches.

The idea of whether they "should" or not is still a matter of opinion, I think. And I'm certainly not saying WHEAT GLUTEN FOR EVERYONE!!!!11!! but at least it gives a factual basis for whether it's ok to include some grains/starches in a balanced diet... and even more exciting to me, validates the idea that there are real, measurable genetic differences here. Maybe some day we can say with more certainty what an individual dog "should" or "shouldn't" be eating.



ETA: We already know there is tremendous individual variation in things like... drug receptors. That's why ibuprofen works great for one person and hardly works at all for another person, or why morphine makes one person sick and is an awesome pain reliever for another person. Having a measurable way to demonstrate that things like that are true for digestion... it's just exciting to me to see a possible future where the clamor of diet extremists is quieted by real evidence that digestion and suitable diet may be genetically different from one dog to another, so there is no "one true way" and plenty of room for a variety of ways to feed individual dogs.
Yeah, this!
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  #39  
Old 01-24-2013, 04:45 PM
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As Adrienne said, meat also has sugar.

And I never mentioned an optimum diet, but that the dog adapted to getting the most out of it's environment. The dog became the optimum consumer, not vice versa. This article changes nothing about what we already know about the diets of dogs. It proved that they are scavengers, and adapted to eating sub-par foods to survive. Nothing less. Dogs are still individuals who react differently to different foods, as I said in my first post.

But personally, I won't be feeding my dogs a diet consisting of foods they would eat to purely survive (starches, rotting meat, garbage) over what I know would be healthier for them.
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  #40  
Old 01-24-2013, 04:56 PM
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As always feed what works for your dogs. My Malinois do substantially worse with grains, my pit bulls do better on raw but alright on grain free kibble. As for starch i will not be buying any starchy kibbles nor adding them to my dogs diet but I see nothing wrong with those who feel safer to do so now.

I rarely believe a first edition study (boy, have those gone wrong before) but I am happy to see a step in the right direction.
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