2o-2o Vs Running contacts, effect on structure?

[Beanie]

This thread is super interesting - I haven't decided yet what to do with Payton's contacts. Kind of was planning on 2o2o since that's what I did with Auggie but a 4on is intriguing to me too.

Also fffff that last video has the agility bug all on fire and I've been seriously considering entering Mr. Retiree in something again just to go play *flail*

[SaraB]

Here is the modified version that I was talking about, she recently changed it to a "wait" cue instead of a lie down. She does have quick releases as well but basically this is a 4 on the floor technique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YhkRzmG5o

[Shai]

Originally Posted by Beanie

Also fffff that last video has the agility bug all on fire and I've been seriously considering entering Mr. Retiree in something again just to go play *flail*

If it makes you feel any better I gave myself agility fever while i was at it . We're on a two month hiatus and it's killing me. And the dogs too. Just bad luck -- trials here have been filling on opening day for for years but it's reached a new level lately...last trial we were closed out of had a wait list of over 250 runs...

/gripe

[~WelshStump~]

Originally Posted by Aleron

I would be very, very careful with the idea of training a 2o2o and then just changing to letting them run without ever asking for the 2o2o again. A lot of people who try that seem to end up with fly off issues down the road, at least with faster, bigger dogs.

It sounds like your biggest issue is that Enda doesn't have a solid understanding of the criteria for her contact performance, resulting in contact behavior that isn't solid. A lot of people do quick releases once there dog is solid on the contacts, although IME some people strt them and quickly lose their contact behavior all together. Dogs really just want to run But even for a quick release, your dog needs to have a solid contact performance to start with or you're just muddying the waters even further.




This dog is being quick released on the DW I would assume (or she's trained for both running and stopped...hard to tell as SG has contradicted herself a bit on her contact training) but her teeter contact performance is a great example of a 2o2o where the dog is trained to rock their weight back. This sort of contact is trained by using a nose target on the floor.

This video shows how to start training this nose touch contact behavior:

http://youtu.be/bLo3uUp_vfI

There's also the Four On The Floor method, which is a "modified running" or "modified stopped" contact depending on how you look at it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtVqdPy7GXo

I think most people who train this early release in trials.

You could also train for a four on the equipment stop, which would prevent the slamming into the floor.



Corgis can definitely fly off. Trust me

Running a-frame and stopped dogwalk is pretty popular these days. Rachel Sanders running contact method is only for running aframes, not dogwalks.


This sound like a good plan! And I think in the end I'm going to try for a modified version of 2o-2o first. It seems very do-able and is another option to consider.

The main thing with contacts, regardless of what you pick is you need to have clear, easy to understand criteria, start super easy so the dog is able to be right more often than not, very gradually increase the difficulty and don't be afraid to make it easier again. I think very, very often people settle for "good enough" contacts because they want to be running sequences in class or getting ready to enter trials. I have been guilty of this myself But when you allow big holes like that in your foundation, you're eventually going to have to go back and fill them in...and it's almost always easiest to train it the right way from the start than try to fix it.

Don't know what else to say, it's a confusing mess trying to explain it but I have clear criteria, it's our trainer who I think is making things wishy-washy, she trains the basic 2o-2o and with nose targets on the floor, I decided after watching another DVD that I did like the "4 ON" (That's what it's called then?) better and that's what I've been trying to teach her, I wait till she stops in the yellow 4 on and reward, then let her slide down to the nose target and only reward that about half the time (usually when the trainer is watching). Add in also the current state of still having to slow down as we get towards the end, or rush and catch up in front of her at the end, we're only JUST starting at this so I know it's going to take some time to clean this up, but after what was discussed in the Beauceron group I really became concerned over using 2o-2o at all! I think I have my answers now though, and just need to chat with our trainer about how I'm seeing training contacts vs how she's doing it now and try to get our modified program implemented.

Originally Posted by stardogs

Kes has a 4 on contact behavior - avoids the shoulder issue and is clearer for me than 4 off. That said, it's not something I trained super well, so I still use body language to get it solid, but it's held up in competition even when his focus has been elsewhere and that makes me happy.

Yes! THIS! I saw this on another DVD I rented, that this is what I started after a couple classes with her, rewarding her instead as she's in the yellow at the bottom of the frame but not off, 4 on vs 2o-2o, but still a stop and wait for release over just buzzing through it.

[SpringerLover]

I haven't thought a ton about contacts lately as my dogs were taught a "heads up" 2o2o which worked out well for us.

A good friend of mine has struggled with teaching the finer points of a running contact to her toller. When he gets it, his running contacts are beautiful... but it isn't as often as she'd like.

I like the way my friend taught running contacts to her golden and they've been super, super reliable for her. Decisions! (I'm looking for video of both but can't find them right now.)