Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dog Food and Recipes


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 02-14-2005, 10:38 AM
Renee750il's Avatar
Renee750il Renee750il is offline
Felurian
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Where the selas blooms
Posts: 94,266
Default

I would hope their ingredients and grade are much BETTER than Nutro - which has really slick packaging.
__________________
In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves. ~Buddha

Stupid is the most notoriously incurable and contagious disease known to mankind. If you find yourself in close proximity to someone infected with stupid, walk away as soon as said infection is noted.


There are few things more nauseating than pure obedience. ~ Kvothe

***8206;"silence is the language of god, all else is poor translation."
Rumi
Be a god. Know when to shut up.


Good Kharma Tags
Felurian
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-14-2005, 10:29 PM
Mordy's Avatar
Mordy Mordy is offline
Quigleyfied
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,868
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by homelessdog
The ingredients and grade seemed comparable to Nutro, but cost wise it was cheaper.
yikes!

eagle pack is way, way out of the league of anything nutro has ever made. nutro is a popular food but not a particularly great one.

those shelter dogs are lucky to be eating good stuff.
__________________
Sabine Contreras
- Canine Care
- Nutrition Consulting
- Product Research

I've been frosted!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-16-2005, 10:40 PM
Scott LP Scott LP is offline
HarnessTheWindHuskies
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Willow,Alaska
Posts: 5
Default

[QUOTE=Mordy

corn gluten "fat with a low melting point",

I'm shocked with your extensive knowledge of nutrition you don't know anything about melting points pertaining to fats. Could that mean that Corn Gluten Meal isn't that aweful or "May Be"

healthwise active and innova evo have a high protein and fat doesn't make them performance.

If it walks like a duck,quacks like a duck,then it should swim like a duck. Just FYI 24% protien 15% fat in a diet dose put it in an athletic arena. This is a marketing tool for companies to make claims of feeding less which your going to do Duh with that high of protien fat levels.

however, comparing it to standard pet foods is not quite possible, since it is completely grain free from animal sources.

I beg to be different again unless your calling a standard pet food a grocery store one then I agree vs comparing premium to premium with closely related protien/fat and calorie numbers. (Earth Quake happening ohhh!)

however, for a dog, who is a carnivorous animal and has a completely different digestive tract than humans, different rules apply.

I agree but then why do wild or domesticated animals graze. One of the old wise tails were they are missing something in there diet. Its also quite interesting that carnivores eat animals that are mostly grazers, from the butt in.

how much a kibble inflates doesn't only depend on its grain content. it also depends on the content of moisture on the solubility of the source of fiber that is used and the density of the kibble.

I agree somewhat. However the soak test I have and many others I know of have done are with foods of 10% moisture and extruded not pelleted. It will also expose how much fiber is being used.

larger kibble doesn't automatically mean it's less nutrient dense. case in point: kibbles that are offered in different sizes, e.g. regular and "small bites". of the smaller kibble, you will get more to fit into a given volume unit since there is less "air space" between the individual kibbles.

The size of the kibble comes from the extruder into the screen its being pushed threw. 40lbs is 40 lbs know matter of the size or mositure. Unless your taking into account the extra water is being used as a binder in 12%. However, some studies that have been done has said smaller size kibble is easier on the throat, stomach and small intestine then larger ones. Also smaller kibble lessens the chance of stomach torsion from choking on air. Also the more ingredient dense a kibble is will sink not float in water.

bulk is not the problem. neither is too much protein. the true culprit, as has emerged from more recent studies is the phosphorus content, which is quite high in poor quality foods.

To much Phosphorus is a problem but I can tell you from experience again that to much bulk or overfeeding can and dose cause diarrhea and sometimes a bloody stool depending on the working demand ask of them after eating and sometimes just by being excited or stressed is all it takes. The bloody stool comes from to much food in the digestive track at one time sloshing around breaking small blood vessels. There's other problems also caused by this. Also by overfeeding or to much bulk the dog loses more water threw lose stool or diarrhea which in return means the dog cannot digest its food as efficiently and in return needs more food to feed its calorie needs that gets into a nasty cycle.

for example a food that lists a guaranteed analysis of 30.5% protein, 20.5% fat and 27.99% carbohydrates with a caloric content of 1795 ME per pound falls short of one that lists a guaranteed analysis of 24% protein, 14% fat and 40.6% carbohydrates at a caloric content of 1895 ME per pound, because the second food is obviously more digestible -

I don't think I understand what your trying to say here. For one thing a 24/14 cannot produce that kind of ME cals per pound and be more digestible with that high of a grain count compared to a food with more meat protiens and less grain. In order to reach that kind of ME digestible calorie count the carbs could not be more the 20% of the total diet and would need a fat count of 22-24% and added oils to get those calories.

supply (30.5*4 + 20.5*9 + 27.99*4)/78.99 = (122 + 184.5 + 111.96)/78.99 = 5.3 kcal per gram (1/1000 kilogram) the second food should supply
(24*4 + 14*9 + 40.6*4)/78.6 = (96 + 126 + 162.4)/78.6 = 4.8 kcal per gram

I look at ME Kcals a pound not in these smaller insufficient(to me,maybe not others) numbers unless your feeding a Chihuahua or such small breed then grams pertaining to calorie requirements of such a small dog do pertain,perhaps. I found over the years those calcultions help but not in field application uses. Whats lost threw pee and poop is water,vit/min and undigested food. Take 1 lb of dog poop and burn it and then come back and tell me how much is left in ash.

if you'd like to post detailed data for the food you feed, you can easily go through the same calculation and compare. content of protein, fat and carbs on an "as fed" basis tho,

I've already listed it in a previous post of the total diet break down by protien/fat and carbs as fed to real everyday dogs fed everyday 365 days a year. Even a quality premium maintenance is meant for more then just being a couch potatoe.

as someonw who has fed california natural, innova adult and innova evo, i can tell you that the listed caloric content is ME, not GE.

I noticed you left out Health Wise which I have fed and it fell on its face especially by the calories listed. No excusses or mathematicals calculations into grams can change that fact. You say they are ME cals then why aren't they listed that way. I find it close to impossible because the diets I've fed and feed are in the same ball park but mostly lower numbers. Thats interesting isn't it!

what I can tell you is that fat is one of the more costly ingredients in pet food and is thus used sparingly where it's not needed. in more sedentary dogs, the basic need is for skin and coat health, despite the fact that fat is the most natural energy source for carnivorous animals.

Before talking fats/oils(Plus the cost of preserving them) I would suggest learning more about them then in just general terms ie; melting points and grades of qualities of Chicken,Animal,poultry and combinations there of. Skin and natural coat conditioners need to come from more then fats but a combination of ingredients. Not all breeds of dogs can utilize fats as well as others.

You are very out dated on working dog life spans of quality dog owners/breeder and some of your over all information which was to trival to remember. Again your information is by what someone has wrote about and not by being involved in the field experience but basic guide lines by AFFCO. Alot of that information is very bias and or old. I have my biases just ask my girlfriend.

neither am i arguing that eagle pack is not a good food, which seems to be the issue of your argument here as far as i understand your post. eagle [b]is[/b] one of the better foods on the market.

Some of your comments about some of the flavors are not right but are from your perpective and not from a true nutritionist stand point like Dr Townson at Eagle who has to approve those diets and there applications. Such as a lamb and rice diet that you listed as not a true lamb and rice diet which has to be because of the fat source. Natural Pack was never meant to be used as a Lamb and Rice formula. Also Eagle dose list all there diets in ME calories per cup.

what i'm still missing after all this is any tangible information on the food you are feeding, which you claimed only contains 26% and 15% grains

I don't believe you have the knowledge to break a food down fairly other then in general terms. If its not main stream market driven ingredients I don't think you know the application end. For example Natura dosen't even list there fats in there ingredients or at least the ones I looked at unless the oil is the fat source which would make it incomplete and I don't think that is. Also there comparison charts don't compare apple to apples ie; lamb and rice diets for example. Not without more research anyway that I was to bored to do. Not knowing melting points and or different grades of some ingredients tells me you have very little real food application but mostly just definitions. But, hey everyone has to start somewhere. I certainly don't claim to be a nutritionist. But,I have mixed diets from scratch from all raw materials for 20 dogs day after day and had them analized to be balanced untill the last 2 years since I switch to the kibble I feed now but still mix in meat/turkey skins and a meat supplement. You might want to look at BlackWood 7000 34/24,Caribou Creek Gold 27/25,Eagle Ultra 34/24,Royal Canine 4800 32/30 are the only other super high performance diets on the market here in the US that I know of anyway and find out there grain %'s and the relevants to the ingredients used together and why there listed in those orders in the ingredient panel. Also like most ingredients not all by-products or mixtures called by- product are evil. Just like Corn Gluten meal used in the right application of the diet and not relyed on as a main ingredient but used to help compliment another one isn't bad or "MAY BE". I hope this wasn't to forward or disrespectful. If so I apologize now. I will not follow up on this thread anymore Under Eagle being this is a thread for Eagle. However, I've fed every flavor they have except the newer ones.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-17-2005, 07:22 PM
Mordy's Avatar
Mordy Mordy is offline
Quigleyfied
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,868
Default

scott, with all due respect, i take offense to your talking down to me the way you did in your last message. what i can tell from your posts is that you obviously have a reading comprehension problem, since you seem to misunderstand quite a number of my statements and then go on harping on those misunderstandings, making false assumptions, belittling me and questioning my education. i don't usually communicate with people on such a level, but for the sake of the other folks who are following this thread and might be interested in correct information, i'm going to try explaining some things in a little more detail.

Quote:
I'm shocked with your extensive knowledge of nutrition you don't know anything about melting points pertaining to fats. Could that mean that Corn Gluten Meal isn't that aweful or "May Be"
i never said i didn't know anything about the melting points of fat - in one of your posts above, you made a comment about the importance of fats with a "low melting point". fact is that the most natural sources of fat in the canine diet do not have a low melting point because they are fats from animal sources with a relatively high content of saturated fatty acids, which have a higher melting point than unsaturated ones. what is much more important in the canine diet than "fat with a low melting point" is a correct ratio of omega 6 and 3 fatty acids. maybe you'll want to read up on the topic a bit instead of making condescending remarks.

Quote:
If it walks like a duck,quacks like a duck,then it should swim like a duck. Just FYI 24% protien 15% fat in a diet dose put it in an athletic arena. This is a marketing tool for companies to make claims of feeding less which your going to do Duh with that high of protien fat levels.

I beg to be different again unless your calling a standard pet food a grocery store one then I agree vs comparing premium to premium with closely related protien/fat and calorie numbers. (Earth Quake happening ohhh!)
no, just because a food has a higher protein and fat content that doesn't make it a performance food by a long stretch, but it does show that the pet food industry has learned enough in recent years to understand that even for more sedentary animals it is healthier to eat more of what they were designed to eat (protein and fats) and less of what's cheap and convenient (carbs mostly in form of grains).

my reference to standard pet foods vs. evo was in relation to the fact that you can't compare a food that has only 12% carbs and is 100% grain free to more mainstream products, regardless if "super premium" or not, that still contain between 30 and 60% carbs derived mostly from grain sources.

Quote:
I agree but then why do wild or domesticated animals graze. One of the old wise tails were they are missing something in there diet. Its also quite interesting that carnivores eat animals that are mostly grazers, from the butt in.
i don't understand what your comment about "grazing" has to do with the difference in digestive tracts between carnivores and herbivores, and which of them you are referring to when you refer to "wild or domestic animals". please be a little more specific, it's hard to follow your posts with the way you are generalizing but never getting to a concise point.

if you are referring to dogs eating grass at times, that does not necessarily have anything to do with them "missing something in their diet". also, carnivores do not eat their prey animals "from the butt in". you might be interested in reading some material on the feeding habits of wild and captive carnivores, such as dr. david mech's work, or the research of neville buck at howletts and port lympne zoological parks in kent, UK (ref. appendix B in dr. tom lonsdale's book "raw meaty bones") .

Quote:
40lbs is 40 lbs know matter of the size or mositure.
exactly, 40lbs is 40lbs, but one cup (by volume measurement) of kibble A isn't equal to one cup of kibble B, which is exactly my point as i have said twice before - to compare fairly, you need to compare by weight unit and not by volume. a pound of lead and a pound of feathers weigh the same, but a cup full of lead weighs a lot mroe than a cup full of feathers.

Quote:
To much Phosphorus is a problem but I can tell you from experience again that to much bulk or overfeeding can and dose cause diarrhea and sometimes a bloody stool depending on the working demand ask of them after eating and sometimes just by being excited or stressed is all it takes. The bloody stool comes from to much food in the digestive track at one time sloshing around breaking small blood vessels. There's other problems also caused by this. Also by overfeeding or to much bulk the dog loses more water threw lose stool or diarrhea which in return means the dog cannot digest its food as efficiently and in return needs more food to feed its calorie needs that gets into a nasty cycle.
i agree that the bulk is a problem, but again, that is not a problem of the protein or fat content of the food, but the high amount of fillers used in poor quality products. these fillers are not very digestible and cause problems in the digestive tract of a carnivore, which is, again, designed to digest primarily protein and fat, not some concoction of grains with a little meat and fat - regardless if you are feeding a working dog or a household pet. in a working dog the effects are going to show up so much earlier and more severe, since more food mass is processed than in a more sedentary animal. but that doesn't mean the food that is digested better should be reserved for performance or working dogs.

Quote:
I don't think I understand what your trying to say here. For one thing a 24/14 cannot produce that kind of ME cals per pound and be more digestible with that high of a grain count compared to a food with more meat protiens and less grain. In order to reach that kind of ME digestible calorie count the carbs could not be more the 20% of the total diet and would need a fat count of 22-24% and added oils to get those calories.
i see you aren't getting it and i'm giving up because i can't explain the principle of importance in digestibility of all components to you any simpler than i did in my last post. there is a difference between the overall content of energy in a food and how much of that energy can actually be utilized by the dog. you can put all the "crude" fat and protein you want in a food, as long as the dog can't digest and utilize it well, it comes out in the poop undigested. there you have the principle of GE (gross energy) vs. ME (metabolizable energy) in a nutshell.

Quote:
I look at ME Kcals a pound not in these smaller insufficient(to me,maybe not others) numbers unless your feeding a Chihuahua or such small breed then grams pertaining to calorie requirements of such a small dog do pertain,perhaps. I found over the years those calcultions help but not in field application uses. Whats lost threw pee and poop is water,vit/min and undigested food. Take 1 lb of dog poop and burn it and then come back and tell me how much is left in ash.
now that statement is just plain ignorant. if a food has, say, 4.8 kcal per gram, it has 4.8x1000 = 4800 kcal per kilogram, since one kilogram equals one thousand grams. it doesn't matter in the least bit if you compare a lower or a higher number, or if you feed the food in question to a chihuahua or a mastiff, because the end result is the same. and calculations like that have everything to do with practical application. you have even said it yourself in your recent posts, when commenting on taking ME into consideration instead of GE, so i really don't understand why you are trying to twist my words now. do you suddenly not like your own statements anymore?

Quote:
I've already listed it in a previous post of the total diet break down by protien/fat and carbs as fed to real everyday dogs fed everyday 365 days a year. Even a quality premium maintenance is meant for more then just being a couch potatoe.
you've stated crude content of protein and fat and some arbitrary number about grain content. i'd like to see a brand name, manufacturer and an ingredient list, otherwise your statements mean nothing at all. and even that "couch potato" dog has the digestive tract of a carnivorous animal and will do better on more protein and fat and less carbs.

Quote:
I noticed you left out Health Wise which I have fed and it fell on its face especially by the calories listed. No excusses or mathematicals calculations into grams can change that fact. You say they are ME cals then why aren't they listed that way. I find it close to impossible because the diets I've fed and feed are in the same ball park but mostly lower numbers. Thats interesting isn't it!
i left out healthwise because i haven't fed it myself. nevertheless, it is made by the same manufacturer and you don't have to take my word for it, email the manufacturer yourself and get the facts from them. the reason why healthwise falls short is because it is overall less digestible than the other natura foods - it's their budget line! in "eagle pack speak" that would be comparing their lower end line of prism to their higher-end line of eagle pack. i've addressed that issue so many times in my recent posts and i'm not going to repeat myself again since it's obviously useless.

oops, poost too long again, continued below
__________________
Sabine Contreras
- Canine Care
- Nutrition Consulting
- Product Research

I've been frosted!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-17-2005, 07:22 PM
Mordy's Avatar
Mordy Mordy is offline
Quigleyfied
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,868
Default

Quote:
You are very out dated on working dog life spans of quality dog owners/breeder and some of your over all information which was to trival to remember. Again your information is by what someone has wrote about and not by being involved in the field experience but basic guide lines by AFFCO. Alot of that information is very bias and or old.
again you are making generalized statements here, lacking any real facts - like you seem to do quite a lot when you can't dig up anything to back up your positions. please point out where exactly i am wrong and give me references to sources to back up your words. otherwise, as i said above, they mean nothing at all. your statement about me being outdated on working dog life spans is extremely funny, since i never even mentioned any numbers.

AAFCO is the regulating body of the pet food industry and if you want to understand that industry, you have to be aware of the rules. however, i never said that i agree with what they are doing or that i use their materials as the only source of information on canine nutrition. please don't make assumptions like that, it doesn't make you look very credible.

Quote:
Some of your comments about some of the flavors are not right but are from your perpective and not from a true nutritionist stand point like Dr Townson at Eagle who has to approve those diets and there applications. Such as a lamb and rice diet that you listed as not a true lamb and rice diet which has to be because of the fat source. Natural Pack was never meant to be used as a Lamb and Rice formula. Also Eagle dose list all there diets in ME calories per cup.
um, sorry... what's "not right"? again, empty words. please be more specific, don't just make baseless statements.

first of all, the comments in my product listings aboutcertain products not being true lamb and rice diets refers don't state "they aren't true lamb and rice formulas" - they state they are not "lamb only" formulas. meaning they also contain animal ingredients other than lamb, which can make quite a difference in an allergic animal. if a dog is for example allergic to chicken and the owner picks a food that lists lamb as a meat source but then down the ingredient list shows chicken fat as an ingredient, it's not a true lamb diet and the food is useless to that particular dog because it can still cause an allergic reaction. people need to be aware of that, and sadly many aren't. they pick a bag that says "lamb and rice" but don't look at the ingredient list closely. it doesn't matter if these foods "were meant to be" used for the purpose or not.

as for eagle listing the caloric content as ME per cup, that may be true, but the numbers on their website differ drastically from the numbers in their new, printed brochure which i happened to pick up from an eagle rep in person. so either the website hasn't been updated yet, or the brochure lists the wrong numbers as ME. care to fill me in on that, since you obviously know everything?

Quote:
I don't believe you have the knowledge to break a food down fairly other then in general terms. If its not main stream market driven ingredients I don't think you know the application end.
that's funny coming from you, a person who doesn't even know enough about nutrition to be aware of the fact that mineral content in a product isn't changed by cooking. next, those "mainstream, market driven" ingredients happen to be the same ones used in "performance foods", just in different proportions. let's leave it at that, i'm not going to step down to your level.

Quote:
For example Natura dosen't even list there fats in there ingredients or at least the ones I looked at unless the oil is the fat source which would make it incomplete and I don't think that is.
then you need to look closer. besides that, you need to be aware of the specific uses certain natura foods are formulated for, such as for example california natural being allergy formulations designed for food sensitive animals.

Quote:
Also there comparison charts don't compare apple to apples ie; lamb and rice diets for example. [snip]
sorry, you've lost me there again, with your vague statements that don't really contain any facts. you stated you won't follow up on this thread anymore, which shows me you aren't really able (or even interested in trying) to back up all those statements you made, since they all fall apart under closer examination.

i just hope that anyone else who bothered to read this far has been able to take something useful away from this thead, even if it is just the understanding that some people have to write up a storm to defend inferior ingredients used in many (i'm not sying "all" ) commercial dog foods.
__________________
Sabine Contreras
- Canine Care
- Nutrition Consulting
- Product Research

I've been frosted!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-07-2005, 01:52 AM
siemens716's Avatar
siemens716 siemens716 is offline
Show Dog
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 226
Default

My breeder just recommended Eagle Pack. We bought the Hollistic Duck Meal and the dogs Loved it. Its been a hit for the last week.
__________________
Giant Schnauzer-Schnapps
Rhodesian Ridgeback-Whiskey
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:32 PM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site