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CatStina

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#41
Heck I get that even in papillons, which I do think are pretty standardized. I've gotten many questions online and off wondering why my dogs all look so different and which is 'right'. They really all are. Variety is not a bad thing. BCs vary just as much if not more than koolies looks wise. Aussies also vary a ton in looks.

You can find a BC that looks like an Aussie. An Aussie that looks like a BC. An English shepherd that looks like an Aussie or a BC. Or a Welsh sheepdog that looks like a BC. Or a koolie that looks like a BC.

There's some overlap looks-wise in many of these breeds and varying types.
More people think Saxon is a Pit Bull than recognize him as a Staffordshire Bull Terrier. There is a fair amount of variety in the SBT, Pit Bull, AmStaff and other Bull Breeds, as well. Many recognized breeds have a lot of variety in them.
 

AdrianneIsabel

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#42
If you want to knit pick you can find Dalmatians who look different from one another, however I can pick a papillon out of a crowd and the same goes for a whippet, even strange and out of standard ones. The pyr sheps I've seen (which is very limited) share a similar look, my pit bulls though varied share key characteristics. When two types of Koolies look so different it's confusing, not that one needs to appease the masses but its a reasonable notice.

If we try hard enough every breed can be shared as "so varied you can't standardize it!" but that's rather hyperbolic.
 

AdrianneIsabel

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#43
. This breeder likes small, slick coated dogs for where they live but that one likes more substantial, thick coated dogs for their purposes. It isn't terribly hard to select for different coats or builds within a population.
this makes sense but I previously presented this and was given a response (I believe by Avalon, I'll double check when I'm home) that no, this breed does not vary due to needs. So... Confusion as to why its varied remains.
 

Laurelin

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#44
I really don't see how koolies vary more than an aussie or a border collie, to be honest.
 

Oko

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#46
Yeah, not really seeing how their variety of looks is any different from a lot of working breeds. Australian Shepherds, Border Collies, English Shepherds come to mind. To me, they all have a cohesive feel going on, even if I can't pinpoint it per say. None of the dogs pictured have really looked like border collies to me, really. Once again, I'm not sure why looks have to be the standard. Why couldn't it be working ability? I'm pretty sure Linds was talking about how much they varied in looks as well...

I would share photos of border collies that don't look like border collies, but I don't want to share photos that aren't mine.
 

AdrianneIsabel

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#47
I would understand more if someone could tell me what Avalon and Sara/Linds/Nina Koolie share, or if none then how does one differentiate a standardized breed from a herding farm mix?
 

AdrianneIsabel

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#48
Yeah, not really seeing how their variety of looks is any different from a lot of working breeds. Australian Shepherds, Border Collies, English Shepherds come to mind. To me, they all have a cohesive feel going on, even if I can't pinpoint it per say. None of the dogs pictured have really looked like border collies to me, really. Once again, I'm not sure why looks have to be the standard. Why couldn't it be working ability? I'm pretty sure Linds was talking about how much they varied in looks as well...

I would share photos of border collies that don't look like border collies, but I don't want to share photos that aren't mine.
So is the only key characteristic that signifies BCs vs Aussies their working style? Because I'm pretty sure there is a generalized understanding of what a border collie looks like, just like a GSD, even though they can vary greatly. I believe the sought after understanding is what is the generalized look of a koolie and if there is not one then is there any discrepancy about breeding 20lb ones and 80lb ones?
 

JessLough

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#49
They don't really look like border collies to me... though to be honest, I think what might be throwing people off is the condition of these Coolies vs Traveler/Zinga/Didgie
 

Oko

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#50
I know a 22 lb border collie and a 65+ lb one, if that helps you understand where I'm coming from. :)
 

Oko

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#53
What makes a border collie a border collie is how they do stockwork. At least, IMO, and I find quite a large amount of people tend to agree. To each their own, obviously, and if your opinion differs that's fine with me. It is thought provoking to ponder.

Considering that both dogs in question are great at doing their work, yeah okay. Why would it be wrong? I feel like this thread may be getting derailed from the subject matter, perhaps if the discussion about what makes a breed a breed were continued in a new thread, that'd make more sense? Then again, threads usually are quite fluid. I just don't want to hijack. :p
 

Grab

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#54
I know little about K/Coolies (or herding breeds in general) aside from what I've seen on here, but I think weight fluctuations are fairly common in some of the herding breeds where there is a large population of strictly working dogs, isn't it? And Aussies and Border Collies do vary quite a bit...even on this board, compare Cara to Merlin. Both Aussies. Both (I assume) correct. Quite a bit different, looks wise.

And now I'm going back to my boring asian dogs and will just follow along this thread with reading, lol.
 

Laurelin

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#55
I think it's just that there wasn't really a physical 'standard' for many of these breeds during development as a purely working breed. I'm not saying looks played no role, they certainly did in pretty much any breed I can think of, it's just that there was nothing written in stone. People have preferences and you see variety in type. Some groups have gone on to try to make a standard but in the purely farm/ranch type lines and breeds you're going to see a lot more variety (which koolies sound like they are pretty purely at this point).

I don't know why people think avalon's dogs don't look like koolies. I think they do.

Whether they should have a standard written up is another question, imo.
 

JessLough

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#56
I think it's just that there wasn't really a physical 'standard' for many of these breeds during development as a purely working breed. I'm not saying looks played no role, they certainly did in pretty much any breed I can think of, it's just that there was nothing written in stone. People have preferences and you see variety in type. Some groups have gone on to try to make a standard but in the purely farm/ranch type lines and breeds you're going to see a lot more variety (which koolies sound like they are pretty purely at this point).

I don't know why people think avalon's dogs don't look like koolies. I think they do.

Whether they should have a standard written up is another question, imo.
It's because they look different. They are not the same as Toolalla (sp?) koolies, so it's not what people are used to seeing.
 

AdrianneIsabel

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#57
To me a standardized temperament and look is what makes a line or type of dog into a breed.

Breeding true, producing similarity in more than one aspect.

Otherwise you have a "type" and in that theory I could breed anything (any dog, sharing bloodlines or not" and have a border collie as long as it herds the same way, no?
 

JessLough

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#59
I don't see it. Honestly, I don't.
You... don't see a difference between these dogs and Trav and the girls?

The longer hair, the different ears... that's what I'm talking about :lol-sign: Oh, and they're not merle.

Again, I don't think they look like BCs either. But, I can see that there are differences (though again, a few could be condition issues)
 

Laurelin

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#60
You... don't see a difference between these dogs and Trav and the girls?

The longer hair, the different ears... that's what I'm talking about :lol-sign:
No, not any more than I see a difference between Steve and Blaze and Finn and Wesley. Or Cara and Hawk and Kechara and Merlin.
 
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