Coolies

[avaloncoolies]

Originally Posted by avaloncoolies

So trying to stay on topic here, well we were off topic from my initial coolie intro thread but now we are definalty going way OT...so I would like to propose a little game:

Like I said I beleive Coolies have a consistency within the different breeding programs (which reflect differences in purpose of work, needs, geographical location in aus., breeder preferences etc...) so here is a collage of 3 avalon coolies produced by moi (me in french)...3 Dams / 2 Sires, 3 different litters over 2 1/2 years...who can pick out the coolie that does not share a sire with the other 2?

So to answer the ONE person who played the little game (thanks BTW) The pup that does not share a sire with the other two is actually the pup in the middle!!

[Dizzy]

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

Dizzy, I'm not sure you understand what others have taken from my questions. Should I try and represent them again?

I have repeatedly said its not about looks purely but looks do hold importance with the purebred dog. They signify important traits. I am referring however to a predictable size, joint structure, feet, and personality such as DA, instinct, drive, off switch, handler focus, etc.

Variance will always happen but you sought out a GSP from your breeder because you expected a certain dog, you have said in another thread you chose this dog as to not be overwhelmed by a strictly hunting line dog. That is predictability and confidence in a breeder who can produce what they have sought out to create.

I don't really get what you're trying to ascertain.... I really don't. You approach any breeder because you know what you're getting, what that is is open to interpretation.


You may as well open a phone book and jab a pin in it if you don't. Personally I like the fact you can do that, and I can't see there ever being a time you wouldn't be able to.

[AdrianneIsabel]

Originally Posted by Laurelin

I honestly think with the aussies, a lot is that people are so used to the show type and the full drop ears just because that is what is most common.

Was that really the only difference amongst littermates that you were trying to emphasize when rationalizing the question of consistency in the K/Coolie breed? Their ear set?

[Fran101]

Originally Posted by avaloncoolies

So to answer the ONE person who played the little game (thanks BTW) The pup that does not share a sire with the other two is actually the pup in the middle!!

**** I could've sworn middle and righty were related! LOL They look so much alike!

[AdrianneIsabel]

Originally Posted by Dizzy

I don't really get what you're trying to ascertain.... I really don't. You approach any breeder because you know what you're getting, what that is is open to interpretation.


You may as well open a phone book and jab a pin in it if you don't. Personally I like the fact you can do that, and I can't see there ever being a time you wouldn't be able to.

The point was when I questioned the variance in an entire breed several came forward and said look at the variance in one litter, so while I accepted my lack of knowledge in Coolies I prompted an expansion of why is it a good or bad thing to not have consistency of structure (and looks/traits) within a litter? Haven't we been taught that breeders should be producing a consistent outcome of their goal? If that is incorrect then why bother with purebred at all?

I guess I was surprised to see "look at this variety in this litter" posed as a good thing, maybe I misunderstood.

Eta, I apologize for the OT but in my defensive I did ask one on topic question of the OP that is still open.

[Laurelin]

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

Was that really the only difference amongst littermates that you were trying to emphasize when rationalizing the question of consistency in the K/Coolie breed? Their ear set?

No....?

I'm really honestly getting confused as to what you're asking for.

Aussies vary a lot looks-wise. Many herding breeds vary a lot looks-wise. That was the point I was making. Not anything else or more.

I am not saying it's good/bad/whatever. Just saying that it is. So koolies varying a lot looks-wise does not surprise me.

[Airn]

I *think* I understand what you're saying, Adrianne. And if I do understand, then I agree with you.

(This is all based off of my personal choices, nothing is related to health or breed standard, since I'm a 'casual' dog owner.)

It's not that I don't mind breeds to vary. It's nice to have differences. But if I want breed A then I want to know ideal weights, common colors, patterns, traits, ect. I don't want to be looking for a breed and see one that is a long coated merle with floppy ears that weighs 50 lbs from one breeder and then a short coated solid with pricked ears that weighs 30 lbs. How are people supposed to know anything about the breed if it's all over the place?

It's not a 'right' or 'wrong' thing, no, but to me it just makes sense to want your breed to have consistency. If the breed varies so much, why isn't it two breeds? I don't really know what 'makes' a dog breed a breed, but I'm seeing some pretty big differences in this C/Koolie thing. (And other breeds, but that's off topic.)

If you want that many variations, go to your local shelter. They have some GREAT dogs that can come in long coats, short coats, brindle, solid, black, white, 15 lbs, 60 lbs, whatever you want!

[Dizzy]

So this is more about this litter than breeds?

Personally if I was buying a working bred gsp differences between siblings wouldn't interest me nearly as much as can it do the job I want it to. So no, I wouldn't care if ones ears were longer, but yes I do want them to do the job. Whether ALL of them could do the job isn't really my concern at that time is it?

[Aleron]

I'd love to see stacked pictures of the K/Coolies and good head shots. It's not always easy to tell much from shots of dogs sitting and laying around or in action.

Originally Posted by Fran101

All these dogs (or most rather) have their championships and are aussies through and through.. I just think they are a nice example of how, even within a single breeder, you can have a lot of differences and all well within standard

I think the Aussies you posted are all pretty similar in type. There will be minor differences even in littermates in this like size, substance, ear set, etc but the breeder you went to definitely seems to produce pretty consistent type.

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

My question further extends to those with such variety in their breeders litters, do you not seek a breeder who can produce a consistent look and temperament?

By looks I mean structure (chest, back, feet), coat type (wire, tight, double), and traits (hound ears, lack of pigment, scissor bite).

Well if I was looking for that sort of consistency across the board, I'd probably not have gotten a PyrShep Variety sort of defines the breed. I remember the year they were going to be accepted into AKC being at a judges education with Belgians and the PyrSheps being across from us. Most breeds take 6-8 representatives of the breed for the judges to be to judge and for the judges to be able to see differences in type within the breed. There must've been at least 20 PyrSheps there, in order to give the judges a good feel of how varied the looks can be in the breed.

With PyrSheps, there are three varieties in coat: Rough-Faced with a long coat, Smooth-Faced and Rough-faced with a demi-long coat. The SF coats can range from fairly short with feathering to Aussie type coats. Colors include fawn which ranges from copper to light wheat with or without a black mask, fawn merle, brindle, brindle merle, gray from very dark to very light, black, blue merle with or without some white markings. Copper points seem to be a possibility in the breed but I've never seen one in person, only in pictures. Tails can be docked, natural long or natural bob and ears may be cropped or not. Uncropped ears for show ideally would be rose ears or semi-prick but some have flopped ears like how show Aussie ears are glued to look, mismatched ears or prick ears. Savvy has rose ears mostly but one is a bit higher than the other and sometimes stands all the way up. Very cute

There is a large size range accepted in the standard and an even larger one in reality. The standard allows for 15"-18" basically and then it allows for Smooth faced males to be even taller - up to 21 1/2". Which is about the size of Whimsy. So Sheltie sized to small Belgian sized. The tallest one I've seen is I think 22". Weight seems to be anywhere from about 12 lbs to 35lbs.

So here is the question...would anyone without knowing actually identify all of these dogs as being the same AKC recognized breed?

[AdrianneIsabel]

Aleron, I specified, or maybe only Fran and Shai saw it, that I accept variance in the breed. However I was thrown by using variance in a single litter as "okay".

If I go for a litter I want to know what I'll be eating. I'm confused by anyone who does not.