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  #11  
Old 04-02-2006, 02:09 PM
Dobiegurl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedyreRottweilers
In Canada they do offer altered classes, but they do not compete with the intact dogs.

You can always show and finish your dog, and then alter it.
Thats what I plan on doing. Showing my future dogs for a few years then having them fixed. What is the average years for a show dog? When is a good time to retire them?
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  #12  
Old 04-02-2006, 02:11 PM
Gallien Jacks Gallien Jacks is offline
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Personally i think it depends on the breed
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  #13  
Old 04-02-2006, 02:18 PM
Dobiegurl
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Originally Posted by Gallien Jacks
Personally i think it depends on the breed
And there enthusiam to be in the ring. I am just curious as to how long you should/can show your dogs.
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  #14  
Old 04-02-2006, 02:21 PM
Gallien Jacks Gallien Jacks is offline
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I don't think there is a limit here, we just have the veteran classes for the older dogs
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  #15  
Old 04-02-2006, 03:06 PM
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tempura tantrum tempura tantrum is offline
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As conformation is an evaluation of breeding stock, I see an altered class as pretty pointless, although I can understand why there's an interest in it (showing dogs IS fun!)

Veteran classes at specialties are always a bit of fun however, and I like watching the older dogs do what they love doing.

Quote:
Thats what I plan on doing. Showing my future dogs for a few years then having them fixed. What is the average years for a show dog? When is a good time to retire them?
It totally depends on the breed, and how fast that breeder's particular lines mature. Most Shibas finish their championships very early on in their lives, usually before they reach 2 years of age. People often don't special a Shiba much longer than its 5th or 6th birthday. In other breeds, the dogs aren't even all that competitive until they're 4-5 years old (I know this to be the case with some lines of Shetland Sheepdogs).

As far as showing a dog and then altering it, as Gallien Jacks pointed out, most breeders aren't going to be selling you a fabulous show specimen knowing that you're going to finish the dog's championship and promptly alter it. They're much better off keeping the dog themself, or selling to someone who's really serious about showing and breeding the dog.

If you aren't keen on breeding a dog, a good idea to look into is perhaps getting a dog that is a retired champion. Many breeders rehome some of their retired show dogs, so they don't end up spending their best years sitting in a kennel. Getting one of these guys would allow you to compete in a few Veterans classes, and get an idea as to whether or not you're really into the whole "dog show game," without having to own an intact animal.

Also, keep in mind that a good breeder is a mentor- if you are truly interested in showing, they won't leave you hanging, they will nurture and guide you along with your new puppy. No breeder will expect a complete newbie to finish a dog, and then breed a litter, care for a pregnant b!tch, raise and sell puppies. Most of the breeders I know maintain the breeding rights (at LEAST) on their b!tches, so that they have an active say in where their lines are going. In my case, my breeder co-owns my b!tch, and when the time came for her to have a litter, she did *everything* (being a college student, I really wouldn't have time to effectively care for puppies). That being said, I got to babysit the pups for a couple weekends, and ended up taking the show prospect puppy home several times to work on socialization. That puppy is now an American champion (currently 1/2 way to his Canadian Ch.), and the pride of my heart (he's the boy in my siggy)- it's really quite a special thing.

With all this in mind- not every dog that finishes *needs* to be or *should* be bred. There are many dogs that finish their championships that aren't bred, or just don't end up cutting the mustard- and this is good- I certainly don't advocate breeding *every* animal that finishes. It's just that if you're buying a puppy, no breeder will immediately dead-end the dog's career without knowing how the animal is going to turn out.
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  #16  
Old 04-02-2006, 03:14 PM
Dobiegurl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tempura tantrum
As conformation is an evaluation of breeding stock, I see an altered class as pretty pointless, although I can understand why there's an interest in it (showing dogs IS fun!)

Veteran classes at specialties are always a bit of fun however, and I like watching the older dogs do what they love doing.



It totally depends on the breed, and how fast that breeder's particular lines mature. Most Shibas finish their championships very early on in their lives, usually before they reach 2 years of age. People often don't special a Shiba much longer than its 5th or 6th birthday. In other breeds, the dogs aren't even all that competitive until they're 4-5 years old (I know this to be the case with some lines of Shetland Sheepdogs).

As far as showing a dog and then altering it, as Gallien Jacks pointed out, most breeders aren't going to be selling you a fabulous show specimen knowing that you're going to finish the dog's championship and promptly alter it. They're much better off keeping the dog themself, or selling to someone who's really serious about showing and breeding the dog.

If you aren't keen on breeding a dog, a good idea to look into is perhaps getting a dog that is a retired champion. Many breeders rehome some of their retired show dogs, so they don't end up spending their best years sitting in a kennel. Getting one of these guys would allow you to compete in a few Veterans classes, and get an idea as to whether or not you're really into the whole "dog show game," without having to own an intact animal.

Also, keep in mind that a good breeder is a mentor- if you are truly interested in showing, they won't leave you hanging, they will nurture and guide you along with your new puppy. No breeder will expect a complete newbie to finish a dog, and then breed a litter, care for a pregnant b!tch, raise and sell puppies. Most of the breeders I know maintain the breeding rights (at LEAST) on their b!tches, so that they have an active say in where their lines are going. In my case, my breeder co-owns my b!tch, and when the time came for her to have a litter, she did *everything* (being a college student, I really wouldn't have time to effectively care for puppies). That being said, I got to babysit the pups for a couple weekends, and ended up taking the show prospect puppy home several times to work on socialization. That puppy is now a champion, and the pride of my heart- it's really quite a special thing.

I do plan on breeding, just very far down the line. I am going to get a show dog when I'm about 18 or so and I know I will not be ready to breed then. Down the line I will breed but right now and in the near future I just want to have fun and show my dog. After years of experience with a particular breed and being active in the dog world is when I will think about breeding.
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  #17  
Old 04-02-2006, 03:24 PM
Gallien Jacks Gallien Jacks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tempura tantrum
As conformation is an evaluation of breeding stock, I see an altered class as pretty pointless, although I can understand why there's an interest in it (showing dogs IS fun!)
I think the choice is a good thing no one should be pushed into breeding just because they want to show, and the breeders can also chose
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  #18  
Old 04-02-2006, 04:25 PM
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I think the choice is a good thing no one should be pushed into breeding just because they want to show, and the breeders can also chose
I agree- no one should ever be PUSHED into breeding a dog, just because they want to show. This was exactly my point in speaking about showing retired champions, and working with mentors. I will NEVER be one to advocate that *every* dog that finishes its championship be bred, (or that every dog that doesn't, shouldn't be bred- but that's another argument). In all honesty, I believe most dogs shouldn't be bred (regardless of attaining their Ch.) However, I plan to be incredibly selective when I begin my own breeding program.

My goal in the previous post was to simply remind of the fact that the point of conformation IS to evaluate breeding stock. Having regular altered classes (those besides Veterans and the like), makes little to no sense in light of this. Far too many people outside of the dog show world believe that dog shows are "canine beauty pageants." I fear that regular altered classes only serve to further this misconception, which is one that we strive *so* hard to fight against.

That said, I believe it makes FAR more sense to step into a breed ring with an intact dog, under the watchful eye of a good mentor. It is your mentor that will help you decide whether or not your dog is worthy of breeding, even after he/she becomes a finished champion. I know several people who *love* showing their dogs, but have absolutely no interest in the breeding aspect. This is fine- they worked it out with their breeder, and the breeder handles everything regarding canine reproduction, while they enjoy handling their dog. It's simply a matter of working such details out with your breeder *before* you buy the puppy.

Dobiegurl- your plan is very similar to what I'm doing now. I currently have one intact show girl, but I don't plan on starting my own breeding program for several years more. It would be too hard to do along with going to college and impending vet school applications. While my girl has had one litter, the breeder handled it exclusively. Even after 9 years in Shibas, I recognize I have a LOT to learn before I attempt to do this on my own, and even when I have my first home-bred litter, I will have TONS of help from my mentors.
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  #19  
Old 04-02-2006, 04:44 PM
RedyreRottweilers
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FWIW, NO one who purchases any dog from me would ever be required to breed it. My contract stipulates this exactly.

If I want to breed a dog that much, then I need to keep it myself. Some people don't care to breed or keep an intact male around once it's finished it's CH title.

I require the dog be FINISHED, and HEALTH TESTED, with all results released. After fulfilling those requirements, should the owner wish to alter the dog, it is their dog to do so, with my blessings.

There ARE terms that must be met should they decide to breed the dog.
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  #20  
Old 04-02-2006, 05:26 PM
motherofmany motherofmany is offline
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For you youngsters, there is always Jr Handling Wish there were something similar for adults quite frankly.

When to start showing a dog and when to retire one seems to be very breed specific. As someone else noted, Shelties are often not competative until 3-5 years of age, and we have had several Veterans win the National.

I am not a fan of "puppy flyers" because many times, their quality simply doesn't hold. Frankly, I wish there were rules that stated at least one of a dog's majors had to come after age ___ (dependent upon breed) so we would know size/coarseness/temperament/bite etc wasn't going to "go off" before the dog is allowed to finish.

Anyway. Going to apprentice for a professional handler might be something an adult would enjoy since there aren't handling competitions for adults. Eventually, you'd get put on some class dogs and get to enjoy that.

Beats buying a "show prospect" that may or may not ever finish knowing it will never be bred from anyway.

IMO
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