Zip Tie

[Lyzelle]

Originally Posted by Kilter

I would suggest that you two start something, anything as far as a code of ethics and a club of some sort goes, before someone else does who doesn't think testing is needed or assumes they can breed border collies to heelers and call them 'rare koolies' and making a mess. Just a suggestion. Plus having something online that defines what they are and has solid info will help others learn and get in touch.

This. You need to set yourselves apart from the BYBers and the Designer Mutts.

One major difference here is that the C/Koolie is an actual breed. Another is that you are both educated and have goals in mind. You want to keep tabs on your dogs, and that is important too. But there needs to be a readily available education source for anyone who wonders about C/Koolies. A database. A learning center...all of it. Contacting you is good, but many people won't go even that far for quick information. They want to read a few web pages and be done.

Or else you might go bottom up to Designer Mutt breeders, which is the worst way to go and the best way to leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth....speaking from the consumer perspective, of course.

[Linds]

Ok, I wanted to elaborate since I think I rushed some of my answers since I was getting ready for work.

I've been much conflicted about the working/herding aspect with breeding plans. I very much would love to stay true to the breed roots of a working farm dog. But, I also don't live on a farm currently nor do I really see herding trials as proving working ability but rather sport work. In addition to that I'm not that incredibly interested in truly trialling in herding. I fully plan to get them both exposed to stock, have someone help me work them or work them themselves enough times to get a good idea of their ability, type of working, clear headedness etc. Because I do feel it's the core of the breed but at the same time, like I said, I don't live on a ranch with my dogs working everyday and to me that's about the only way to truly say I'm breeding for working dogs, I'm not that interested in stock dog trials and I don't live close enough currently to any place that I could train at at a consistent basis.

I would though like to very much try to place some dogs on co-owns/breeding contracts with people that intend to work them on stock on a regular basis. How feasible this will end up being, well time will tell, but I would very much like to do that.

As for not titling extensively I'm not sure what you mean? Currently my main interest is Disc but like I said I plan on working/learning/training in agility and rally too. If it works out some other few titles and things would be nice such as doing some dock diving. But, I would very much rather train fully and compete to high levels in one or two sports rather than jump around and dabble but never "master" any, if that makes sense?

Like Sara said, we are very often in contact with people considering importing at a later date, making plans and feeling things out. Also, because of my heavier online presence I've had breeders come to me when they have people talking about importing to the states and often send the people to talk to me. It's helped make quite a few connections and while nothing is set in stone there are more people/dogs in the works other than Sara and I.

And I understand the idea of starting a club but as it stands right now I'm hesitant to do it. So far with the infighting going on everyone's solution is to create a new club. I would rather get a foot in the door, learn more and flesh out more before trying to make another club.

Ok, everything else I just again say ditto to what Sara said!

[Dakotah]

I am loving all of the info in this thread. I have been reading this thread since it started. Everytime I think of a question to ask, I read the next post or 2 and find the question was asked and answered I love Linds and Sara's coolies. Zip is so handsome <3 Keep up the good job ladies, y'all have some mighty big goals and I, and surely everyone here, wants y'all to succeed.

[Red Chrome]

I love the Koolies but I have one question. How can they be a breed without a standard? To me, for a breed to be a breed, there has to be a written standard detailing the basic conformation,temperament and characteristics. Even the more rare breeds have written standards in my experience.

[Linds]

Originally Posted by Red Chrome

I love the Koolies but I have one question. How can they be a breed without a standard? To me, for a breed to be a breed, there has to be a written standard detailing the basic conformation,temperament and characteristics. Even the more rare breeds have written standards in my experience.

Koolies just don't. They have an overall working/temperament standard but nothing written. They are a varied breed, their looks can go from short furred, merle, prick eared 25lb dog to a long haired, drop eared, solid colored 50lb dog. They are bred for different types of work, different conditions, different stock etc. so having a set standard was never wanted since it's limiting and not necessary when they are defined by their work.

Also, I want everyone to keep in mind Sara and I are still learning, still new in the breed and don't consider ourselves experts in the least. It's an on going process, figuring things out still, learning more and evolving along with our plans

[Red Chrome]

Originally Posted by Linds

Koolies just don't. They have an overall working/temperament standard but nothing written. They are a varied breed, their looks can go from short furred, merle, prick eared 25lb dog to a long haired, drop eared, solid colored 50lb dog. They are bred for different types of work, different conditions, different stock etc. so having a set standard was never wanted since it's limiting and not necessary when they are defined by their work.

Also, I want everyone to keep in mind Sara and I are still learning, still new in the breed and don't consider ourselves experts in the least. It's an on going process, figuring things out still, learning more and evolving along with our plans

So there is a standard, just not written...that makes a difference to me. Very interesting. Do you have any pics of longhaired Koolies? I'd love to see one.

[Brattina88]

Originally Posted by Beanie

I fully admit I find this all fascinating, and if I weren't already so close to full up and didn't love my shelties so much, my interest in koolies is totally piqued and I would be doing some serious research of my own... but Payton is already my PITA dog so I do NOT need another one LOL.
until I breed him and get a Payton baby anyway, most likely.

I was reading/learning/enjoying this thread and then that made my heart stop lol

[Lizmo]

Originally Posted by Red Chrome

I love the Koolies but I have one question. How can they be a breed without a standard? To me, for a breed to be a breed, there has to be a written standard detailing the basic conformation,temperament and characteristics. Even the more rare breeds have written standards in my experience.

To me, from what I have read/learned, the Koolie 'standard' is alot like the 'standard' of a working-bred Border Collie. I don't ever remember reading/hearing about a 'standard' when I was researching the working side of the border collie breed. They can be many different things: short, tall, long, floppy ears, prick ears, smooth coat, rough coat, black, white, merle, blue, etc.

I always thought of the 'standard' as having a healthy dog that is mighty fine at working stock. Maybe that's wrong?


Linds, Sara, thanks for being open to all the questions! I do hope you guys will pursue the working side of the breed further than instinct tests, though. Those really don't tell much. Basically, oh, yes, a light bulb does come on when around stock. But it won't tell you if the dog is natural on one flank versus the other, do they do long outruns naturally, do they struggle with tight spaces, are they a pro with lambing, is lying down an issue, how do they react to different types of pressure, are they better with 5 sheep or 150 sheep, how to they handle correction, etc.

I am curious, and I do apologies if this has already been addressed, are you guys going for making this breed into one that is focused more on the sport side or a 50/50 split of sport and working mix?

[SaraB]

Originally Posted by Lizmo

Linds, Sara, thanks for being open to all the questions! I do hope you guys will pursue the working side of the breed further than instinct tests, though. Those really don't tell much. Basically, oh, yes, a light bulb does come on when around stock. But it won't tell you if the dog is natural on one flank versus the other, do they do long outruns naturally, do they struggle with tight spaces, are they a pro with lambing, is lying down an issue, how do they react to different types of pressure, are they better with 5 sheep or 150 sheep, how to they handle correction, etc.

I am curious, and I do apologies if this has already been addressed, are you guys going for making this breed into one that is focused more on the sport side or a 50/50 split of sport and working mix?

I completely agree, it would be wonderful to go further than instinct tested and that is why I will keep Zinga in lessons and encourage my husband to pursue that with Zip. I absolutely need to learn more about herding in general, as well as herding trials.

Once again, I don't think we are "making" this breed into anything. This breed is already well established in Australia. I appreciate my sport dogs, so automatically that is what my dogs are going to be stronger in. I'm perfectly ok being a "sporter" koolie breeder as long as those koolies retain herding instinct.

[Lizmo]

Originally Posted by SaraB

Once again, I don't think we are "making" this breed into anything. This breed is already well established in Australia. I appreciate my sport dogs, so automatically that is what my dogs are going to be stronger in. I'm perfectly ok being a "sporter" koolie breeder as long as those koolies retain herding instinct.

Making probably was not the best choice of words. I guess a better choice would be focus, possibly. I was just curious what your main focus (even goal?) would be, or would you try for a mix between excelling in sport and working ability. Thanks! And an immense amount of luck to you guys. I'm super excited for you!