Zip Tie

[Psyfalcon]

You know...

If we were talking about Border Collies with a show title, there would be a couple pages of grumbling over how BCs shouldn't be judged in a ring, and then we'd be on to looking forward to baby puppies. (The parents have titles after all!)

Now we have a couple of people who plan to title their dogs in multiple sports, and there are still posts about that?

[~Tucker&Me~]

Originally Posted by SaraB

Linds already answered this, co-own dogs that could benefit the lines in the future and speuter agreement on pet quality.

Have you guys talked much about exactly what the agreement will entail? I am curious because I know Linds is very vocal (in a good way) about keeping Traveler intact for health reasons, not simply for breeding. I also keep my male intact (with absolutely no intentions to breed) because I feel that it is unnecessary (at least at this point - he is 6 years old) and that I am capable of responsibly keeping him contained.

Linds also mentioned that she liked the fact that the original breeder sold him to her without a complicated contract, and that once the money was sent he was her dog to decide how to best care for. Like Linds' breeder, mine did not require that I neuter Spy, just that I not breed him without consulting her and getting her approval.

I am a bit surprised that you guys are planning to do a neuter agreement. Would you mind expanding on your reasons for doing so and, if you know at this point, what the contract would roughly entail? I am curious as to why you have decided to go this route after it seemed that Linds was really an advocate for having the choice to leave a dog as nature intended if an owner felt that they were capable of the responsibility that comes with it.

[~Tucker&Me~]

Originally Posted by Psyfalcon

You know...

If we were talking about Border Collies with a show title, there would be a couple pages of grumbling over how BCs shouldn't be judged in a ring, and then we'd be on to looking forward to baby puppies. (The parents have titles after all!)

Now we have a couple of people who plan to title their dogs in multiple sports, and there are still posts about that?

I don't think anyone is attacking. Most people on the forum know quite a bit about BCs, but coolies are still very 'new' to the scene. I think people are just curious and want to know what direction Linds and Sara plan to take the dogs they are importing. As far as I can tell, they don't mind the questions and their honesty and openness is helping people get a better feel for what to expect down the road.

Honestly, if people decide to breed dogs I think they should be open to scrutiny. Keeps things honest

[Dizzy]

Clubs help contracts. For eg, Fred was sold progeny not eligible for registration. Ie if I breed him the pups won't be papered. It's not exactly solid, but it is something.

I can't lie, I see a lot of holes here. I think you'd definitely benefit from a mentor or shadowing another breed club.

[SaraB]

Just a quick note before we head off to trial this morning. We have not discussed the contract, and am still not entirely sure it will be a neuter contract or a non breeding one. I do believe that there needs to be some piece of paper signed by both parties to limit the breeding of pet quality dogs.

Of course there are holes! This is all brand new for Linds and I, breeding is at the minimum 2 years away. I have several breeders that have already been so patient with my questions, they will be consulted before anything is decided. I have also been very involved in the local great dane breed club for several years, served on the board for one of those years.

[Linds]

Originally Posted by ~Tucker&Me~

Have you guys talked much about exactly what the agreement will entail? I am curious because I know Linds is very vocal (in a good way) about keeping Traveler intact for health reasons, not simply for breeding. I also keep my male intact (with absolutely no intentions to breed) because I feel that it is unnecessary (at least at this point - he is 6 years old) and that I am capable of responsibly keeping him contained.

Linds also mentioned that she liked the fact that the original breeder sold him to her without a complicated contract, and that once the money was sent he was her dog to decide how to best care for. Like Linds' breeder, mine did not require that I neuter Spy, just that I not breed him without consulting her and getting her approval.

I am a bit surprised that you guys are planning to do a neuter agreement. Would you mind expanding on your reasons for doing so and, if you know at this point, what the contract would roughly entail? I am curious as to why you have decided to go this route after it seemed that Linds was really an advocate for having the choice to leave a dog as nature intended if an owner felt that they were capable of the responsibility that comes with it.

I am very vocal about it! It's one of the thing when Sara and I talked I think I said I just can't bring myself to be ok with, an alter agreement.

Here's what I posted earlier in the thread

Originally Posted by Linds

Sara and I have discussed this a couple times and I think were we ended up was hoping to co-own with people along with non-breeding (but negotiable) contracts for the others.

But yes, still a ton of things to figure out. Contracts give me hives, it's going to be interesting seeing where we go with that and I imagine Sara is going to want to beat me over the head a few times!

[Aleron]

Wow what a thread! Zip Tie is cute and looks like a real puppy now

As someone involved in breeding a herding breed who doesn't do herding, I wanted to touch on that. Back when I first decided to breed dogs, when I was a teenager and long before any breedings ever took place I thought for sure I would breed dogs that could do it all. My breeding dogs would do herding, schutzhund, high level agility, high level obedience and be pretty enough to finish CHs easily. It was obviously that GSDs didn't fit that mold when I tried to become involved with showing them but Belgians seemed like they could. And now years later, I still feel that they certainly could.

However, the truth of the matter is that I do not have unlimited time nor do I have unlimited funds in which to pursue all of these many venues. I tried to do everything with Jagger, including SchH and while it showed me what an awesome, versatile dog he truly is...it made it hard to focus on any one thing for titling purposes. It became obvious that while he loved SchH and I enjoyed it, I would have to give up all of the other stuff I loved and was already involved in to pursue even getting a SchH1. Things like SchH and real, higher level herding tend to easily become all consuming. Unless you're lucky enough to live close to an outstanding club or instructor, it usually involves a good bit of travel time and lessons can be pretty expensive.

With herding, if you have a really strong dog and a dog that isn't a BC, it is not always easy to find instructors that are the right fit for your breed/dog. And it can be extremely hard to get past the "herding as a test of obedience" with a strong dog when you don't have access to sheep on a very, very regular basis (like more than weekly). This is because the dog tends to get so excited by the sheep every lesson, it takes awhile for them to settle enough to work them and even then it's as I said, more a test of keeping control than real life herding. Dogs who live on farms don't react the same way because they see livestock from the time they are puppies. It is much, much easier for dogs with daily exposure to stock to progress and show their real talent.

Some breeds, it is nearly impossible to recreate their traditional herding setting in the US. While herding seems like one set behavior pattern, different breeds have different styles. The terrain, type of stock, number of stock and overall situation the dogs were developed in can make for herding breeds to have drastically different styles and behavior towards stock. PyrSheps lived with a shepherd and his flock and they spent most of their lives together in that setting. The dogs knew their sheep so well that they could pick them out of a huge group on community grazing land when it was time to go. And the sheep knew the dogs so well, the dogs had to have what many would consider an "aggressive" herding style when it came down to the sheep needing to be moved. The dogs had to be able to work sheep high in the mountains, where footing was bad and the sheep couldn't always all stay close together. How could one really truly test that for that here in the US? GSDs were bred to work thousands of sheep in open grazing areas, keeping the sheep within a natural boundary. There are I think two places in the US that offer the true GSD style herding. Many GSDs who are good for that type of herding are just too powerful for the small pen with a few sheep work most commonly done in the US. Not to mention, gripping is essential to GSD's herding style and frowned on by many livestock owners And Koolies...it would seem near impossible to test their skills at managing hundreds of sheep, working large numbers of sheep in tight quarters, backing and what not in the US unless you found a working ranch that would allow you to come for lessons. And even that wouldn't guarantee you that your dogs could wok in the conditions they would in Australia.

It's a nice idea to say "well if you're going to breed herding dogs, they need to herd". But...it's not always that easy. People involved in dogs tend to already have strong interests in different venues prior to deciding to breed. Most don't want to give up those interests totally and through themselves into something new. A lot of people live in the suburbs and can't have a working farm to prove their dogs on. And even at that, it tends to be a "take what you can get" and the type of herding may be nothing like what the breed was created to do. And...there really is more is more a need for sport dogs in the US than working farm dogs. I think it would be pretty difficult to get real working homes (ie with farmers/ranchers) in the US interested in buying a breed they've never heard of, never seen work and have no experience training. Most people who need dogs for work already have breeds or mixes they use and are happy with. And the truth is, fewer people are using dogs to move stock to begin with. Even working BC people worry about the diminishing need for real herding dogs. It seems most of the Koolies being brought here are being brought here because people like the breed and not as real working farm dogs but I could be wrong.

[Linds]

Very nice post, that's pretty much exactly what I was trying to get across earlier but said better.

Also, I just want everyone to remember this wasn't a "Here are our fully formed, completely ready plans to start breeding tomorrow". This was us just trying to be forthcoming and transparent about what our thought process has been, things that are in the works and ideas/dreams/desires we have. Because of that you do get to see the many holes, uncertainties, and naiveté that is there. Nothing is set in stone, nothing is completely fleshed out, we've got years of planning, research, people to talk to and things to figure out ahead of us.

[stardogs]

I can't imagine how daunting it is to be navigating the rare breed breeding waters! There seem to be so many more considerations when the breed has such a small pool to draw from in country and breeding a breed more common is complicated enough. I'm looking forward to following along as you guys continue to work out the details for sure.

[Beanie]

Originally Posted by Linds

By the way, I'm picturing the chaos, destruction and all around hysterics that would happen with Payton and a Koolie working together. It's amazing and terrifying.

The NOISE.

Originally Posted by Brattina88

I was reading/learning/enjoying this thread and then that made my heart stop lol

Yeah, the idea of multiple baby Paytons makes my heart stop too, but probably for a different reason...



On the subject of herding - IMHO, in the US at least, herding has become a "sport" (ie. herding trials) for a great many people and an actual means to a livelihood for very few. It is incredibly important to me to find a sheltie breeder with a dog who can move sheep, but the number of breeders who own their own sheep to test this is very slim and seems to be getting smaller all the time. I do think it's incredibly important to find a test outlet of some kind even if it's "just" a herding trial (I'm not saying instinct test, I'm talking further along) but we've talked quite a bit about the changing faces of breeds in modern times - for example, testing the gameness of dogs who were bred to fight - and I have no fancy that herding dogs are somehow exempt from that.
Would I prefer a breeder who has a farm and works the dogs on the sheep every day? Absolutely.
Would I turn up my nose at a breeder who lives in the middle of the city but has multiple dogs (of her own and dogs owned by other people) with herding titles and agility titles? Nope.

I would pass up a breeder who didn't have any dogs in her lines at ALL doing at least herding trials - there is a breeder who is technically on my short list because although she doesn't do herding herself (she does agility, flyball, and confo), several of her puppies go on to do so. Since the ability to trial sheep is there in her dogs, she is on my list. I would prefer the breeder to be proving the ability herself rather than having the puppy buyer proving it but, as Aleron said, I can understand from the perspective of how much time and money she is already putting into her dogs... it's not like she's sitting on her duff doing nothing but churning out dogs and the puppy buyers are the ones doing all the legwork to title pups.

Cliffs Notes, of course it would be ideal if Linds and Sara were working the dogs on a flippin' ranch, but in the world we live in now, I feel like there are other solutions out there as well.